B, Bb, F and all that

[RickPick]

OK, so you folks convinced me long ago that BG mandolin players can't just limp along in G, D, A, and C and hope for the best. And now I can happily chop til the cows come home in all those fancy-schmanzy keys. But when it comes to putting together a break in B, Bb, F etc, I'm at a (nearly) complete loss. In G, D, A, and C, I pretty well know what frets and open strings work (harmonically if not always melodically). So my question is "Do I just need to get that same familiarity with all those other keys, esp the open strings?" Or do I need to learn to pick out melody notes and harmonic notes (and double stops) up the neck, using all fretted notes, and then I can slide up or down the neck to suit any key? I can "sort of" do this already, but my playing doesn't sound nearly as interesting as it might in G, D, A, and C. Or am I missing some entirely different way of thinking about this? Always appreciate the advice from this forum and always enjoy learning about this little 8-stringed buddy.

[bigskygirl]

I practice things I know in all those keys using the open strings...B is a tough key but after awhile one gets used to it. Just take a tune you know and run it thru those keys, after awhile you become familiar with the mapping and you'll be able to do a nice solo.

You can always do the "plant your index finger on the root" thing but after I got thru the initial frustration of translating things to other keys its really not that bad and you have the open strings to use...a couple of moments and I'm good, its not perfect but if someone says "I just wrote this on the way here, its in Bb"...I can do a little sumpin' sumpin' now...

[Willie Poole]

One piece of advice that I got many years ago from one of the fellows in the Stoneman family was to learn every new song by not picking any open strings and then you can play it anywhere on the fingerboard, you do have to move up the neck some but they still sound good if you have a good mandolin...My problem with playing in B and B flat is making the chords when I chop, I broke my left hand last fall and now I can`t make any four fingered chords so improvising the B and B flat just doesn`t seem to work like it does with the G, A and D chords...

Practice, as much as you can...

Willie

[Charlie Bernstein]

Yeah, it's funny. I can improvise in any key on guitar, but getting the scale shapes down on mando has been a huge challenge. That's odd, because the mando's layout is a lot more logical than the guitar's.

It's probably just a matter of doing it over and over until you don't have to think. Like the guitar.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Playing in any of the keys that the OP mentions,is simply a matter of moving your fingering up by one fret at a time. If you can play in the key of "A",then if you move your left hand fingering up by 2 frets,you'll be playing in "B". Move one fret down from there,& you're in Bb. That's all that i do & i can manage to play in any key that comes along. It's purely a matter of practicing doing it - as in all things.

Strangely,the key of "B" is one of my favourite keys on mandolin - just as it is on banjo. When my singing voice was half decent,it was also my natural vocal key - i could do a darned good impression of Ralph Stanley singing ''Little Maggie'' - but that was 45 years back !,
Ivan

PS - Here's one of my favourite practice tunes - ''Bonnie Brown'' - Lonesome River Band in 'B'. maybe 100's of songs / tunes are in that key - you need to nail it & all the others - just in case !.
https://youtu.be/ZnhO5AM0iyA

[Mandobart]

Open strings and the key of B is an oxymoron on a standard tuned mandolin. With 5 sharps (F, C, G, D, A) I guess you can play an open E. If you're getting bluesy a flat 3rd or flat 7th works depending on musical context, giving you open D and open A at times. B is a popular bluegrass key for sure but not usually open string friendly. This is where knowing your fretboard and scales pays off.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Playing in any of the keys that the OP mentions,is simply a matter of moving your fingering up by one fret at a time. . . .

Yeah, that's what I mean. I have no problem sliding all my go-to scales up and down a guitar neck, but it still stymies me on mando.

Maybe the two extra frets zatz my little brain.

Prescription: Get myself out to that woodshed!

[UsuallyPickin]

BigSkyGirl gives good advice as does WilliePool ….. playing tunes you already know in odd keys gives you a "feel" for those other keys. Playing in closed positions, ie no open strings , allows you to move up or across the neck with ease, sort of anyway. Lastly, as an exercise, practice a G D or A tune with your middle ring and pinky fingers and leave your index finger to cover to open string in a fretted position as you move up the neck. It will feel wonky most definitely but will yield a good result all around. R/

[allenhopkins]

Symmetrical fifths tuning of the mandolin is your friend, or at least helpful. You can play in C, where the "tonic" or "do" note is the third fret on the second string, and the fifth fret on the fourth string. Move to the key of F, and the tonic note's the third fret of the third (D) string, and you can work from there. B flat, the tonic note's the third fret of the fourth string. In G, the tonic note's the third fret of the first string.

So you have a not identical, but similar fretboard layout to work with. You will at least find large parts of the relevant scales "familiar territory," and as you have to expand your fingerings to encompass the different keys, you won't be totally breaking new ground.

Anyway, that approach has helped me. I'm still pretty simplistic in the key of B, and notes at the sixth fret still require more concentration than frets one through five -- which is pretty sad, after 40 years of playing -- but I can get through breaks in any key thrown at me. They may be just licks and tremelos, but they're there...

[JRcohan]

Playing in those keys can be difficult. The great jazz mandolinists had no problem sounding great in all keys. Understanding movable closed positions is a great start.



Above is a lesson in closed positions.

Ted Eschliman wrote, "Getting into Jazz Mandolin," which is the best resource I have for learning to play in all keys. His website is also full of great material:

http://www.jazzmando.com

I have a video I think will help. In this video I show some closed position major scales. The video starts with an Eb major scale, I then show how easily it is moved to the key of E and F. After learning the pattern practice playing folding scales and writing motifs within the scale so that your playing sounds more musical. Here is my video showing some closed positions.

https://youtu.be/TJgnA2qK8pg

Remember you can simply raise the 4th note in the pattern and you have a Lydian scale. You can also lower the 7th note in the pattern and play Mixolydian which works over dominant chords. The major scale is the basis for it all making it the place to start.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The bottom line is - you need to be able to play in many different key,& whichever way you tackle it,it still takes practice to hammer it home. The way i did it was to find the ''kick-off'' note & take it from there ie. the E on the D string / second fret, is the kick-off note for me to play a tune in A - move down 2 frets & the F# on the D string / 4th fret is the kick-off note for tunes in B.

A simple tune to try that on is ''Lost Indian' where the D string & A string notes follow one another = D string note & then A string note. At least that's how i play it - ''run-ins'' seem a tad OTT on such a simple tune,i go straight to the melody line.

Here's one of the very best known tunes in the key of B - Herschel Sizemore's tune ''Rebecca''. I'd been playing that on banjo years before i'd ever picked up a mandolin or heard of Herschel Sizemore. It's such a great tune that when i came to mandolin,it was a 'must play' tune for me,so i did what i've always done,figured it out by ear & finding the 'sounds' on the fingerboard. It took some doing,but i'd done it all before on banjo,so i knew all about that - i just got it done - like maybe the majority of players on here Rebecca - Herschel Sizemore :- https://youtu.be/eOPOOaVSVnc

The YouTube attachment 'thingy' isn't working either,as well as the 'Insert video' 'thingy'.
Ivan

[Beanzy]

Just seeing I can make it work for me.




It seems to ok.

I just click “go advanced” then the red YouTube button to get the pop-up.
Pasting the whole lot in there won’t do it though,


I need to delete everything except the last section of the code

Then it comes up like the top of this post.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Eoin - That's not exactly explained on here is it ?. I'd been using the Insert Video function ever since i've been on here,then,all of a sudden it doesn't work !.

So - you simply remove the https://YOUTUBE from the clip ?,
Many thanks - Ivan

Here goes nothing - 'Fair Weather' in F - Alison Brown.

[Beanzy]

Bingo! I think the idea is that the YouTube button does all the donkey work of inserting ‘something from YouTube’ & we just have to put the identifier in there. Looking forward to many more from your treasure trove there Ivan.

[Mark Wilson]

F was a key I tried to avoid until our jam group started doing a few vocal tunes in F. Started out using just closed position notes but after some time playing in F, I use open notes, especially A when it's handy

F seems like a mandolin friendly key now. B and Bb not so much yet. Need to hoe in that row some

[DavidKOS]

Very interesting.

When you come from a city that had a band instrument tradition and no Bluegrass scene (at least in the 60's and 70's), the keys of Bb and F are the most commonly played, along with Eb and Ab.

I grew up playing tenor banjo in Dixieland bands. We even joked that if something was plain, average, run-of-the-mill, commonplace, etc., it was a "Bb" such-and such.

It's always an eye-opener to find out just how unusual growing up playing mandolin and banjo in New Orleans and South Louisiana in general was compared to the rest of the USA.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I just had my daily 'pick along'' to a load of YT / CD clips.I have no problems with any key - except D. That's not exactly right though - it's just that it's neither up nor down. You either kick off fom the G strings onto the open D,or from the D string fretted at the 7th fret to the D at the 5th fret on the A strings. One D seems too low,& the other a tad 'high' - never mind !!,
Ivan

[Jim Garber]

Here's one of the very best known tunes in the key of B - Herschel Sizemore's tune ''Rebecca''. I'd been playing that on banjo years before i'd ever picked up a mandolin or heard of Herschel Sizemore. It's such a great tune that when i came to mandolin,it was a 'must play' tune for me,so i did what i've always done,figured it out by ear & finding the 'sounds' on the fingerboard. It took some doing,but i'd done it all before on banjo,so i knew all about that - i just got it done - like maybe the majority of players on here Rebecca - Herschel Sizemore :- https://youtu.be/eOPOOaVSVnc

You can see Herschel's fingers in this video (starting at 00:49):

[lflngpicker]

This is a good video in the way it provides information about a moveable box for playing closed positions up the neck. There are other shapes that work nicely and other videos, but this one is a place to start.

[RickPick]

Wow! Thanks for all the helpful posts! It will take some time to digest these useful pieces of advice, but wanted to say THANKS for helping. Oddly, bigskygirl's reference to the "plant your index finger on the root" thing was helpful in an unexpected way. When I've picked out melodies from a closed position (I think that's correct terminology?-- no open strings), I've always tried to do so with my RING finger on the root, because that's the finger on the root note when I do a full chop chord, as in G. I thought that would keep my other fingers in better position to add harmonic/double stop/chord notes -- which it does -- but it sure makes playing the melody a lot more complicated! So now I'm working on rethinking this, and adding as much as I can from these other helpful posts. Sheesh -- who needs to sleep? I was up at 5:00 this morning having mandolin epiphanies thanks to you folks! Good on you all!

[JeffD]

Do I just need to get that same familiarity with all those other keys, esp the open strings? Or do I need to learn to pick out melody notes and harmonic notes (and double stops) up the neck, using all fretted notes, and then I can slide up or down the neck to suit any key?

Yes.

But not all at once. My experience is that anything you do to get up the neck helps. Whether its anchoring a neighborhood of notes to a finger, FFcP, learning third position, playing familiar tunes in closed position, getting familiar with odd keys, whatever.

I have found that progress is never a smooth uphill climb. Its always climbing a little, enjoying the new landing place, from the now familiar level spot explore a little, find in exploring there is a higher landing place, climbing again, enjoying that new landing place, repeat. Hopefully forever.

Every now and then look down and see how far you have "all of a sudden" come. And every now and then look up, to see what new adventures might be attained. Growth, security, growth, security, and on and on.

And... don't compare yourself to others, compare your self to your prior self.

[Andy B]

The bluegrass box idea (movable patterns) is elaborated on at greater length in a book/cd combo by Niles Hokkanen called “Bluegrass Up The Neck.” It explains the most common double stop and scale patterns. Next to in person lessons with a good teacher, I found this to be the most useful bluegrass mandolin instruction available.

[Mandoplumb]

F and B are no problem for me. I have 5 mandolins and none of them have a Bb on their fretboard

[onassis]

F and B are no problem for me. I have 5 mandolins and none of them have a Bb on their fretboard

?
That's strange. Mine seems to have at least seven. Maybe your's only has A#'s

[onassis]

But seriously, learning how to work a chord progression using double stops is the easiest approach I've found to playing in less familar keys. The mandolin fretboard is absolutely symmetrical, so once a pattern is learned, it can be shifted to any key. My trusty fallback is root-5th double stops with the index finger on the tonic. I'm also pretty comfortable with moving through root-3rd doubles with the middle finger on the tonic (the classic "open G chord" tri-tone). Lately I've been working on having the root under the ring finger (classic K or "chop" chord), getting more comfortable working those arpeggios.

Bottom line, learning to work without open strings can really set you free.