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Thread: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

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    Registered User MandoMN18's Avatar
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    Question Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Hi,
    I know that in the cheaper mandolins that it is often said you will get more bang for your buck with an A style rather than an F... and I agree with this. What I’m wondering is if there is a price point where that changes. Is a $3,000 A style still going to have better tone than a $3000 F style? Does it start to not make a difference at some point?

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    F styles with the same appointments as an A style always cost more due to the increased labor involved. Doesn't matter who the maker is or what the price point is, Kentucky to Gilchrist.
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Doesn't seem to - A5 stays roughly 1/2 the cost of comparable F5. Maybe at the top end the price gap is closer but still not close to even

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    Rush Burkhardt Rush Burkhardt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    There is a point where the A v. F pricing reverses! When I last saw it, the Griffith A5 was priced at $342,000. At the same time, Loar F5's were priced in the $150,000 -$200,000 range!
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    Registered User Benski's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    A sample set of one is statistically insignificant.

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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    It's conventional wisdom that you get more bang for your buck with an A style, but I had 3k max and ended up with a Northfield NF5S. I don't have a strong preference between A or F style. The Airloom case added some value as I wouldn't be tempted to upgrade the case.

    The Pava Pro, MT2, and Northfield A5 were all over 3k which was my upper limit. An MT was around the same price but didn't seem hands down better.
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Leyda View Post
    It's conventional wisdom that you get more bang for your buck with an A style, but I had 3k max and ended up with a Northfield NF5S. I don't have a strong preference between A or F style. The Airloom case added some value as I wouldn't be tempted to upgrade the case.

    The Pava Pro, MT2, and Northfield A5 were all over 3k which was my upper limit. An MT was around the same price but didn't seem hands down better.
    There is still a delta in cost between Asian made and USA made mandolins. If you're looking at mandolins from the same builder of the same quality, the A style will be less than the F style generally. Like comparing a Collings MT vs Collings MF. I think the Northfield NF5S compares favorably to the Collings MT and MF, and is a very good value, because it is made in China where labor, transit, factory space, and manufacturing costs are all considerably lower.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    From the OP - " Is a $3,000 A style still going to have better tone than a $3000 F style ? ". I don't recall that having ever been stated on here in quite that way. A £3,000 "A" style of one individual make ''may'' sound better than a $3,000 "F" style mandolin of a ''lesser or different'' make,but comparing the same maker for both styles,i'd bet that there wouldn't be any degradation in tone,but there would still be 'differences'', as no 2 mandolins ever sound exactly the same.

    The general rule seems to be,that an "A" style & an "F" style mandolin from the same maker,would sound very similar,& if both are liked by any prospective buyer,then the "A" style at a lesser cost for a similar tone,would be the better buy - financially.

    Possibly one exception that i'd add,are the Kentucky KM-900 / KM-956 "A" style mandolins. Those 2 models,especially the older KM-900,came in for a boat load of praise when they came out. It was modeled on the Griffiths 'Loar',the only known "A" style LLoyd Loar mandolin,& it was favourably compared with mandolins of any make / style as being a really top notch mandolin. One Cafe member,who owns a genuine Lloyd Loar mandolin & a KM-900,has a very high regard for the KM-900 even by comparison to the 'Loar' - even i couldn't drum up higher praise than that !!,
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Of course, it will even out once price is no longer an issue and the best materials are being used. For example, at $10K you are no longer buying "best bang for the buck," you are buying the maker's reputation and overall quality. You are choosing an A style, because you prefer it to an F style, rather than it being a better value.

    It's an "apples and oranges" type of comparison. You can take $10 and go to Taco Bell for lunch and get full. I, personally, find it hard to eat $10 worth of food at Taco Bell. You can take the same $10 and go to a nicer restaurant and only be able to afford an appetizer and have to leave hungry. Does that make Taco Bell the best bang for the buck? Well, yes, but only if you like the food they serve. Now, if you have $25 to spend for lunch, you can get full at both either place. (on a lighter note, and I'm no doctor, but when I see laxatives advertised on TV, I just shake my head and think, "I guess they haven't heard of Taco Bell!")

    I think of Peavey electric guitars and amps, back 40 years ago, being known as the "best bang for the buck" among guitar players. They were also known for reliability, as well. They also were known as some of the ugliest guitars and amps ever made, IMHO. So, I'm saying, if you can't stand to look at it or play it, it really isn't a good value, IMHO.

    Same with the A vs F comparison. If you want an F don't "settle" for an A.

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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    I think your question should be phrased, "At which price point does the quality difference between USA made and Chinese made imports begin to blur." The answer, IMO, is with the upper tier Kentucky and Eastman lines with their occasional gems, but more consistently with Northfield, which is making some outstanding mandolins right now.

    When you compare A vs F for all makers, within similar appointment lines, the F styles are always more expensive, the Griffith Loar excepted. Now, a quick bit of Googling finds the Northfield model M A5 priced at $3500 at Elderly, more than the F style S series. But, the model M is made completely in the USA I believe, which puts it on par with other USA made upper-middle crust A styles.

    All the gibber jabber aside, it's awesome that there are so many reasonably priced and very good quality instruments available, and not just from Kentucky and Eastman, but also individual builders like Ken Ratcliff, Skip Kelly, Sonny Morris, Audy Ratliff, etc...glad you got a good one!
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoMN18 View Post
    you will get more bang for your buck with an A style rather than an F...
    Others have tried to interpret or rephrase your statement; I'm not sure what it means either.

    But one thing I know Collings and believe Ellis and Kimble and Dudenbostel also say is that they cannot hear a difference between their F- and A-style models made with the same tone woods and finish. I believe that too, but if anyone knows of a masked discrimination test where listeners could reliably tell same maker's F from A with sufficient samples for validity, please provide the reference.

    And as already pointed out, the materials and labor are significantly higher for an F- (binding the scroll and points alone!), so at the equivalent level of appointments it will always cost more. If by "bang" you mean tone, yes, bang+bling/style+brand = price, with bang/tone constant for any given brand.

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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoAblyss View Post

    If by "bang" you mean tone, yes, bang+bling/style+brand = price, with bang/tone constant for any given brand.
    Exactly. It's known in the trade as the Bling:Bang ratio and can also be expressed as, Bling + Bang over 2 = price.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    I wonder how much difference is there between no frills A and F style Collings, being mostly CNC carved there is minimal difference in manhours between F and A. I can count fully handmade F would take 50 and more hours extra work over A but on the full CNC process perhaps 5-10 hours difference if most of the details are done on CNC. Materials are the same for both. So I would guess the prices can be much closer for simpler factory made instruments and much farther apart with more elaborate fully handmade instruments.
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote - " ..you will get more bang for your buck with an A style rather than an F...". Whilst understanding the meaning of the phrase - it's intrinsically incorrect ! (IMHO). What it sould say is ''That with a single builder,a good "A" style should deliver very similar attributes to one of their "F" styles - not more !.

    As we understand,even with the use of CNC routing,an "F" style will still take more time to construct than the more simple "A" style,but,as Adrian suggests,using CNC routing could bring the man-hour difference down by quite a margin & thus reduce cost,
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by O. Apitius View Post
    Exactly. It's known in the trade as the Bling:Bang ratio and can also be expressed as, Bling + Bang over 2 = price.
    I believe that is the equation used in the “Bling Bang theory” to describe the creation of the universe:
    Bang = 2(price - bling)
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Technically the phrase should really be “more bang per your buck.” In other words, you will get more quality/tone etc for every dollar/pound/euro for an A model vs an F
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Leyda View Post
    It's conventional wisdom that you get more bang for your buck with an A style, but I had 3k max and ended up with a Northfield NF5S. I don't have a strong preference between A or F style. The Airloom case added some value as I wouldn't be tempted to upgrade the case.

    The Pava Pro, MT2, and Northfield A5 were all over 3k which was my upper limit. An MT was around the same price but didn't seem hands down better.
    I’m considering purchasing a Pava. Can I ask what made you go with the Northfield instead?

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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    The A vs F price goes out the door when you get into the Lloyd Loar signed instruments. When you take out the outlier that is the Monroe Loar I'm guessing the Ms. Griffith would bring more than any of the rest and it's an A5.

    Added a day later: I totally missed Rush's post above. Carry on.
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Jun-07-2018 at 3:27pm.
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoMN18 View Post
    I’m considering purchasing a Pava. Can I ask what made you go with the Northfield instead?
    I identified mandolins in my price range. I kind of figured that any of them would be all the mandolin I need. Really I would be lucky to have any of them. I found out that I didn't like a narrow or wide nut. 1 1/8 feels most comfortable. Collings MT and Norhfield NFS seemed to have consistent tone and of the two I preferred the Northfield. I was able to hear them live and on video.

    I didn't get to hear many Pavas in action but I bet I would have been satisfied with that too. I definitely would have pulled the trigger on the NAMM Pava that was offered in the classifieds for 2995.

    I'm done shopping. I'm just going to play the NF5. It's better than I am
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Leyda View Post
    I identified mandolins in my price range. I kind of figured that any of them would be all the mandolin I need. Really I would be lucky to have any of them. I found out that I didn't like a narrow or wide nut. 1 1/8 feels most comfortable. Collings MT and Norhfield NFS seemed to have consistent tone and of the two I preferred the Northfield. I was able to hear them live and on video.

    I didn't get to hear many Pavas in action but I bet I would have been satisfied with that too. I definitely would have pulled the trigger on the NAMM Pava that was offered in the classifieds for 2995.

    I'm done shopping. I'm just going to play the NF5. It's better than I am
    Thanks! Yeah I missed out on the NAMM Pava I contacted the seller and they said the sale is pending. I do wish there was an opportunity to try a Pava in MN but I haven’t found one so far.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does the A vs F style price point even out eventually??

    I think Pavas get snapped up quickly. I went to the closest dealer to me (about 1.5 hours in CT) and the last time they had sold off all the ones they had.
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