Hearing yourself without playing too loud in a band

[mswlogo]

This really applies to my wife playing Tenor Banjo but we just ordered a Eastman 914 and I expect this same issue will continue. So I'm curious what suggestions folks might have. I did post this on BanjoHangout but didn't get much for suggestions. This must be a common issue.

I'm trying to help my wife out and get her out in public (Jam or Band).

She has certainly plateaued and she needs to get out and play with others.

I play fiddle so I rarely have trouble hearing myself even if I play softly while I pickup a tune.

She can't do that. Because by the time she can hear herself over others it's louder than she is comfortable with so she refuses to play with others. It's kind of a catch 22. That she won't get any better until she does.

So I was thinking of adding a pickup and an ear piece of some sort. I know when ever I've done anything like that putting sound in one ear is disorienting. But still might be worth it.

Can anyone suggest what pickup to use (temporary or permanent), and what earpiece/headphone, portable amp etc.
And if there are possibly stereo earpieces that also can adjust how much ambience she will hear.

She plays a little Wonder and this will likely be in a large Contra Dance band. We have managed fine to quiet the Banjo down so she can comfortably noodle. But she then can't hear herself. It's luxury I take for granted on the fiddle.

Swap (little Wonder with Eastman MD914)

Price of components "to fix this" is not a concern. I just want a solution that works well.

[Willie Poole]

You say you quieted the banjo down and now she can`t hear her self? Un quieted it a little bit...

I assume with a tenor banjo she is using a flat pick, she might want to try a harder type pick and see if that doesn`t give her more volume...When jamming most folks don`t have an amp at their disposal so having a pick up would do anything, the banjo has a resonator doesn`t it, if not she is loosing a lot of volume there...

Picks make a huge difference when playing so try a lot of different ones and they are most likely the cheapest thing to do to add volume...

Willie

[Steve VandeWater]

Willie, I don't think that's the OP's problem. They muted his wife's tenor banjo; it could be played louder if she wanted. She is likely just not confident enough in her abilities to play as loud as she needs to in order to be heard by others in a group setting. I have the exact same problem. When I play with others, I play so tentatively and quietly that often I can't even hear myself. Then I'll play louder so I CAN hear, only to find I'm out of tune with the rest of the group. It's embarrassing and frustrating.
What the OP asked, I believe, is if there is an earpiece or something that will allow her to hear herself even when others cannot. I wonder the same thing. If I had such a device, then I could make sure I was in the right key before I started playing loud enough for others to hear me.

[Willie Poole]

If everyone in the group uses an electronic tuner then you should be in tune, if your mandolin is set up correctly, and just ask what key the song is in...Never be afraid to play as loud as you need to to be heard, every one in that group will understand that they were also a beginner at one time or another and shouldn`t find any faults with what you or she is playing...It`s been a long time since I was at that stage on my "picking career" but I was never afraid to try and be heard, if you and her can play the tune at home then you can play it out in public...DO NOT EVER FEEL ASHAMED OF YOUR PLAYING...Remember a trip of a thousand miles starts with the first step..I remember the first song that I ever sang in front of an audience and I told them it they expect to hear Monroe of Lester Flatt then they are 750 miles to far north and I belted it out and never had any fear after that...

Just go for it and practice playing harder and louder at home...I don`t know any other way to look at it...if it is confidence that is lacking then just practice more and more until you feel like you can hold your own and then go out and jam/pick with other folks...

Willie

[foldedpath]

If the rest of the contra band is playing acoustically, I would strongly advise against trying the self-amplification route for your wife's banjo. Especially the single earpiece idea, which can cause hearing damage when the ear/brain system tries to compensate for unequal volume.

If you have to go with "self amplification" just so she can hear herself without adding to the actual banjo volume, then in addition to a pickup you'll need a good in-ear monitor system. This would include two earpieces, an external mic input (so she can hear the band) and most importantly, a good limiter that will clamp down on feedback or other volume spikes to protect her hearing. This will be expensive, although you only need a hardwired in-ear system and not wireless, which will keep the cost a bit lower. Do not buy anything that doesn't include a limiter!

Dealing with it acoustically is still the better option. It sounds to me like your wife is just dealing with normal beginner syndrome when playing with others. A fear of being heard by other players may be because she isn't quite up to speed with the material. In that case, the cure is more practice at home, so she's confident with the repertoire.

It might also be just a general fear of participation, even if she has the material down cold. If that's the case, then the more she plays out, the better it will get. There are no shortcuts here. It's just about getting enough experience playing with others so you're comfortable doing it.

[NursingDaBlues]

This is a fairly common occurrence. Many folks are very self-conscious about their playing regardless of whether it’s in a jam, in an organized ensemble, or even in a class setting. The thought process goes something along the lines of: “I need to be as good or better than everyone else; otherwise everyone will think less of me.” Yes, that’s an oversimplification of the mindset, but that self-consciousness creates a considerable amount of stress. Then, add to that stress the combination of looking at the left hand, the right hand, listening to several instruments playing at once, trying to remember what you’ve learned, and – well, the brain just can’t keep up. It’s too much stimuli attacking from inside and outside. And the common reaction is to just retreat within oneself. Even with considerable practice time under his/her belt and a strong knowledge of the song(s) being called, self-consciousness can be a difficult mind-set to overcome.

A good solution does not involve a personal in-ear monitor or finding a way to increase the volume of the instrument. I’ve seen effective results through slow exposure. Find a good musician (for this example, I’ll just use a guitar player) that IS NOT you or an immediate family member. You don’t need to be involved because a) she may have an automatic comfort level with you that goes away when she tries to play with others; or b) she may feel more pressure from you than you realize. So, stay out of the practice area and allow the guitar player and your wife to practice a song or two together once or twice a week. The key is to allow your wife to recognize the role and purpose of her tenor banjo or mandolin in a duo where the guitar player is the dominant instrument. Then after a few sessions, she takes on a more of a role. This will allow her brain to not get too stressed, and enable her to work with and expand her playing basics. Once she becomes comfortable with a duo and her accompanying role, then add another instrument and allow her to re-discover the roles in a trio. And after a period of time add a fourth.

It takes patience. And it may take some time. It’s very difficult to tamp down a self-conscious mind-set. But it can be done.

[mandroid]

I find hard surface reflectors help you hear your projected sound..
an empty solid desk music stand like Manhasset?
[standing in front of a sliding glass door?]

a widget i've seen used, is a disc like the rings of Saturn around a microphone, of clear plastic..

you see teleprompters reflecting projected light, this idea is reflected sound..

[mswlogo]

She will never have it all down cold, up to tempo, especially without exposing herself to playing with others.

I know exactly where she is coming from, and it's very easy to control volume with a bow. And very easy to hear myself.
But with a "bright" instrument down at your waist, projecting away from you it's a whole other problem.

I'm glad someone mentioned the one ear thing, because I was concerned about that too.

Getting the right Key is not an issue, she'll have music in front of her in this particular venue.
She can read, but not at tempo (like me).

She is definitely way overly concerned of making mistakes in front of others. No question.
I think once she sees and hears others make mistakes she'll get over that.

But she'll just sit there and not play at all. She has managed to get a few Waltz out that we picked for her.

[Ranald]

I don't have any technical advice (except she can be glad if she doesn't wear hearing aids to compound the problem). However, I think NursinDaBlues (post 6) has very good advice.

Things I've found that might be useful in getting over self-consciousness include:

1) As NursinDaBlues says, working as a duo at home until she's feels confident in being able with her musical partner to play a couple of pieces at a jam. (I wouldn't rule out you working with her, though I think for many couples playing with another person is good advice.)
2) Finding a small number of musicians to play with before going to a bigger, public venue. For less-experienced musicians, it helps a great deal to have a more-experienced musician (you?) as leader (but not dictator), even if everyone has to chip in a few bucks to get that person.
3) Going to or starting a slow jam. There's a recent thread about that. Again you need someone with jamming competence for a guide.
4) Watching what happens when others make mistakes at jams. If everyone makes faces, destroys the offending instrument, or chases away the musician, then she doesn't belong there. In most jams I've been to, the worst that happens is people laugh. And if you are laughed at, that's usually a sign that you're accepted as a competent musician.

All the best.

[liestman]

Mswlogo - I am a tenor banjo player and have played in contra bands a bunch. I take it that she needs to hear herself better while playing relatively quietly in the mix, so here are some suggestions based on that. First if she has a resonator on the banjo, remove it. She will hear herself a lot more. In doing that, be sure she is angling the banjo away from her body some so that she can hear the sound coming out of the open back. That may be all she needs. Second, and this sounds stoopid but it works - get her a wide brimmed hat where the brim gently angles down (Google Leon Redbone and look for pics with his widest hat or search for pics of uilleann piper Paddy Keenan). The wide brim reflects your own sound better into your ears, so you hear your own instrument better in a crowd. Seriously, it works really well.

[ukenukem]

I was going to suggest having her move next to a wall or reflective panel but Mandroid beat me to it. Liestman's resonator removal/hat idea is certainly worth a try.

I have long maintained that the wearing of a fashionable hat onstage prevents the audience from hearing your mistakes!

[Northwest Steve]

I am in no position to give musical advise other than being in a similar boat. I was really self-conscious when I first started going to jams and for good reason. I did understand that music is much more fun when playing with others and I needed to play with others to get better. I go completely off the rails now and again and am lucky that the two jams I go to are pretty laid back and encouraging. So now most of the time I let it rip and no one complains. A banjo or mandolin can add a lot to a group. I would agree with getting a good guitar player and take some lessons. I just started doing that to work on timing and switching from rhythm to melody and back.
A couple of things -
- If the song is to fast or has to many odd chords I will just sit that one out
- If she can stay on tempo I don't think she has anything to worry about. If she is chopping along and not on the off beat that would be a concern. If she is in time others will let some other stuff slide.
-Back off a little when someone is taking a break or singing.


So I would encourage her to jump off the deep end, she will actually come to the surface and it will be alright.

[dhergert]

This is really rare to have a banjo too quiet. I know a lot of mandolin and guitar players who would love to see that.

Does her Little Wonder have a resonator? If not, at least a flat-plate resonator would probably help. If you can't find or make a resonator, just holding the banjo away from her body will keep all the sound from going into her clothes and getting muffled.

Otherwise, if the banjo does have a resonator, playing sitting, if she can aim the bottom half of the banjo rim upward a bit she may hear it better.

Also, when standing and wearing a strap, the center of the banjo rim should be a little higher than a belt buckle would be.

There's a difficult period for every banjo player where they can play loud enough to hear themselves but it's too loud for everyone else. Especially with tenor and plectrum banjo, the flatpick makes very loud sounds until the player has mastered a touch where they can dynamically moderate the volume. Once the player has reached that point, they can play as softly as they want.

I don't know if your wife has reached this point in her playing, but if not, it is something to practice. A good exercise is to take the muffling out of the banjo and work on picking it in the same room as you, aiming to pick so softly and quietly that you can barely hear it. Once she can play that softly, or if she can already, she won't need anything in the banjo to quiet it down, she can do it herself while playing.

This may require an armrest if one isn't on this banjo yet, and also might require a mobile picking hand anchor of the little finger and/or other fingers on the head.

[OldSausage]

If she doesn’t want to make too much noise and annoy people, why does she want to play banjo? I can’t help feeling she’ll be much happier once the Eastman arrives.

[mswlogo]

This is really rare to have a banjo too quiet. I know a lot of mandolin and guitar players who would love to see that.

Does her Little Wonder have a resonator? If not, at least a flat-plate resonator would probably help. If you can't find or make a resonator, just holding the banjo away from her body will keep all the sound from going into her clothes and getting muffled.

Otherwise, if the banjo does have a resonator, playing sitting, if she can aim the bottom half of the banjo rim upward a bit she may hear it better.

Also, when standing and wearing a strap, the center of the banjo rim should be a little higher than a belt buckle would be.

There's a difficult period for every banjo player where they can play loud enough to hear themselves but it's too loud for everyone else. Especially with tenor and plectrum banjo, the flatpick makes very loud sounds until the player has mastered a touch where they can dynamically moderate the volume. Once the player has reached that point, they can play as softly as they want.

I don't know if your wife has reached this point in her playing, but if not, it is something to practice. A good exercise is to take the muffling out of the banjo and work on picking it in the same room as you, aiming to pick so softly and quietly that you can barely hear it. Once she can play that softly, or if she can already, she won't need anything in the banjo to quiet it down, she can do it herself while playing.

This may require an armrest if one isn't on this banjo yet, and also might require a mobile picking hand anchor of the little finger and/or other fingers on the head.

You didn’t read the question. There is no problem making it loud enough. It does not have a resonator nor does it need one.

[mswlogo]

If she doesn’t want to make too much noise and annoy people, why does she want to play banjo? I can’t help feeling she’ll be much happier once the Eastman arrives.

Uhm because she loves it and was inspired by music she listened to to get one and learn it.

I highly expect the Mandolin will have the exact same issue for her, which is why I asked here.

[mswlogo]

Mswlogo - I am a tenor banjo player and have played in contra bands a bunch. I take it that she needs to hear herself better while playing relatively quietly in the mix, so here are some suggestions based on that. First if she has a resonator on the banjo, remove it. She will hear herself a lot more. In doing that, be sure she is angling the banjo away from her body some so that she can hear the sound coming out of the open back. That may be all she needs. Second, and this sounds stoopid but it works - get her a wide brimmed hat where the brim gently angles down (Google Leon Redbone and look for pics with his widest hat or search for pics of uilleann piper Paddy Keenan). The wide brim reflects your own sound better into your ears, so you hear your own instrument better in a crowd. Seriously, it works really well.

Both good ideas. I like the hat one.

But tipping the banjo away, no way, for a more experienced player sure, move it around.
For her, that would change what she is comfortable with, way to much.

We also put some socks in the back to mute it some, so the back might not project much.

[allenhopkins]

Don't amplify the banjo "for her ears alone." She needs to hear the entire band, so she can fit herself into the "mix." Let her simplify the part she's playing -- melody lead, harmony, rhythm chording -- until she can handle it at an audible (to her) volume. As she continues to work with the group, she'll gain confidence, and be able to upgrade her part, adding more intricacy while maintaining the same volume.

If she's switching over to mandolin, either partially or completely, she'll find a whole other series of issues; banjo's louder than mandolin, and she'll have to "dig in" a bit harder to hear herself. If that impacts on her self-confidence, the two of you may have to deal with another learning period.

I would sum up by suggesting that she find a musical level at which she's comfortable with her technique, and begin to play at that level with sufficient volume to be self-audible. Then upgrade the level as skill and confidence increase. This has worked for me -- though I've never lacked self-confidence, sometimes unwarranted...

[mswlogo]

Don't amplify the banjo "for her ears alone." She needs to hear the entire band, so she can fit herself into the "mix." Let her simplify the part she's playing -- melody lead, harmony, rhythm chording -- until she can handle it at an audible (to her) volume. As she continues to work with the group, she'll gain confidence, and be able to upgrade her part, adding more intricacy while maintaining the same volume.

If she's switching over to mandolin, either partially or completely, she'll find a whole other series of issues; banjo's louder than mandolin, and she'll have to "dig in" a bit harder to hear herself. If that impacts on her self-confidence, the two of you may have to deal with another learning period.

I would sum up by suggesting that she find a musical level at which she's comfortable with her technique, and begin to play at that level with sufficient volume to be self-audible. Then upgrade the level as skill and confidence increase. This has worked for me -- though I've never lacked self-confidence, sometimes unwarranted...

She can absolutely play in these 2 bands. But she has zero self-confidence.

I think this is partly a guy vs girl thing. I thinks guys are more willing to risk embarrassing themselves and knows it will be worth it.

She is afraid of playing one note wrong. And will sit there for hours doing nothing.
She is better than many of the players that are playing.

In some ways larger groups are better because you stand out less. I’ve tried her in both.
And nobody would give her a dirty look. She just thinks they will.
I myself played with a mild mute on my fiddle for like a year first (when in public) because I couldn’t play softly.

If she could control what she hears (herself and others) while keeping it at a modest level. I think she’d come up to speed quick.
If I push her to much she’ll just drop playing all together. But she is frustrated with not making progress.
She’s been doing the same thing, about same level for like 4 years, playing for like 8.

She does 95% melody, and that’s what she wants to do.

[dhergert]

You didn’t read the question. There is no problem making it loud enough. It does not have a resonator nor does it need one.

She plays a little Wonder and this will likely be in a large Contra Dance band. We have managed fine to quiet the Banjo down so she can comfortably noodle. But she then can't hear herself. It's luxury I take for granted on the fiddle.

Actually I did read the question, very carefully. The point is you've muted her banjo beyond where she can hear it. A proper resonator can target what sound is being produced toward her ears.

It sounds like if she doesn't want to be loud, she needs to either learn to play quietly, which takes time and practice but is a very worthy thing to learn, or not play the banjo.

Fitting her banjo with a pickup and her ears with ear buds will only make it so she cannot hear other people in the jam or band.

[Bertram Henze]

Self-confidence is built by learning to accept failure. That leap of faith is much easier if you don't dream of making it. The way to success leads through disaster. Abandon the idea of doing it cool and calm - get used to sweat, tremor and a pounding heartbeat because that is real life.

That much for the philosophy behind it. I'd not mute anything. I'd prepare for the issue of...
- playing in time with others by practising along with recordings,
- others hearing me by practising on the front porch or in a streetside room with windows open.

Do that and realize what's behind the recipe to catch a crocodile with a matchbox, a pair of tweezers and binoculars: Look at the crocodile through the binoculars reversed, then it is small enough to be put into the matchbox with the tweezers.

[CES]

My willingness to humiliate myself far exceeds my concern over what others think of my playing. I save lives for a living, and am humbled and also proud of what I do on a daily basis. But, put me in a circle with others whom I feel are “real musicians,” and I’m terrified of effing the whole thing up. In reality, I’ve only gotten negative feedback once, and it was very educational...I wish I had the opportunity to play regularly and learn from those gents.

Sorry to sound crass, but she needs to suck it up and play the crapolla out of her instrument...

[Charlie Bernstein]

There are plenty of cheap pickups out there. Dean Markley has a nice stick-on pickup I've used. But that alone won't necessarily help her hear herself.

There are only two things that have ever worked for me:

1. Using an amp as a monitor:

Put a small amp directly in front of her. (Not behind or next to!) Face it at her and, as much as possible, away from others. Position it so she can reach the knobs easily.

It's better than a monitor (much, much better) because she can control it so it won't be too loud or too quiet and she won't have to reason with the person managing sound - usually a formula for high blood pressure and long-term recriminations.

I have an old Fishman Loudbox Mini, and it's great for this.

2. Not caring:

It's really liberating to just play and not worry about how you sound, who can hear you, or whether you're playing the right notes.

My stage fright was so bad when I was young that I didn't go to get my high school senior yearbook picture taken because I couldn't stand the thought of people looking at my picture. But at some point in my thirties I became fatalistic: I accepted that walking on stage was doom and allowed myself laugh in doom's face. Since then, I've just assumed I'm going to blow it, and when I do blow it (which actually isn't that often), I usually laugh - that Ol' Black Tragic strikes again!

(I'd learned the same trick about bullies while still in high school: If you don't care whether they beat you up, they usually move on to find someone who does. It just took me a little longer to apply the same principle, whatever it is, to stage fright.)

[Charlie Bernstein]

You say you quieted the banjo down and now she can`t hear her self? . . .

Yeah, I wondered about that. Figured it was probably a typo. But on third read, I think she's at sixes and sevens about whether or not she wants to hear herself. My impression is that she does, but she doesn't want anyone else to.

There's I guy I see at an open mic sometimes who's the same way. plays along with everyone (nicely), but you have to really bend your ear to hear him. He likes it that way. Feels like he's flying under the radar.

[Paul Busman]

Have you tried a banjo Tone Guard?
What have you actually done to make that banjo quieter?If it involved several things, you might try undoing one or more until it's the volume she wants.
Tenor banjo players like thinish picks for easier triplets.Maybe a REALLY thin pick would help in her case.
I quieted my Gold Tone open back to avoid annoying my wife when she's trying to concentrate on it. All I did was stuff a rolled wool sock between the regulator bars and the head. It's nice and easy to take out for sessions too.
She might try just bending forward to get her ears closer to the banjo.I have to do that with my mandolin sometimes at loud sessions.
I also sometimes mute my banjo to a variable degree with the heel of my picking hand on or near the bridge.