Hearing yourself without playing too loud in a band

[ukenukem]

One thought about fast tunes. We all have speed thresholds as we gain experience and what I recommend is that if a song is too fast for you just cut back on what you play until you can keep up. You will gain experience and confidence playing only on one beat of each measure because you are playing something that does not detract from the tune, causing your playing to stick out. You do not have to play on beat one either, try beat two or three but stay focused on doing that part well.

As you progress you can add more but you will know the tune well and can build up with the band as the tune evolves.

[mswlogo]

Yeah, I wondered about that. Figured it was probably a typo. But on third read, I think she's at sixes and sevens about whether or not she wants to hear herself. My impression is that she does, but she doesn't want anyone else to.

There's I guy I see at an open mic sometimes who's the same way. plays along with everyone (nicely), but you have to really bend your ear to hear him. He likes it that way. Feels like he's flying under the radar.

We quieted it down enough so she felt comfortable.

Yes of course. It was to much when the rest played for her to hear.

If it’s “normal” volume she WILL NOT PLAY IT, Period.

[mswlogo]

One thought about fast tunes. We all have speed thresholds as we gain experience and what I recommend is that if a song is too fast for you just cut back on what you play until you can keep up. You will gain experience and confidence playing only on one beat of each measure because you are playing something that does not detract from the tune, causing your playing to stick out. You do not have to play on beat one either, try beat two or three but stay focused on doing that part well.

As you progress you can add more but you will know the tune well and can build up with the band as the tune evolves.

We’ve been working on that.

The best place to learn that is with a band.

Even as you learn to back off what you can keep up with, you make mistakes.

She has not learned it’s ok to screw up when she sees others screw up.

But she won’t try, only she can control what she hears and what she wants others to hear.

[mswlogo]

There are plenty of cheap pickups out there. Dean Markley has a nice stick-on pickup I've used. But that alone won't necessarily help her hear herself.

There are only two things that have ever worked for me:

1. Using an amp as a monitor:

Put a small amp directly in front of her. (Not behind or next to!) Face it at her and, as much as possible, away from others. Position it so she can reach the knobs easily.

It's better than a monitor (much, much better) because she can control it so it won't be too loud or too quiet and she won't have to reason with the person managing sound - usually a formula for high blood pressure and long-term recriminations.

I have an old Fishman Loudbox Mini, and it's great for this.

2. Not caring:

It's really liberating to just play and not worry about how you sound, who can hear you, or whether you're playing the right notes.

My stage fright was so bad when I was young that I didn't go to get my high school senior yearbook picture taken because I couldn't stand the thought of people looking at my picture. But at some point in my thirties I became fatalistic: I accepted that walking on stage was doom and allowed myself laugh in doom's face. Since then, I've just assumed I'm going to blow it, and when I do blow it (which actually isn't that often), I usually laugh - that Ol' Black Tragic strikes again!

(I'd learned the same trick about bullies while still in high school: If you don't care whether they beat you up, they usually move on to find someone who does. It just took me a little longer to apply the same principle, whatever it is, to stage fright.)

Ah a few folks get it.

So far I like:

idea of a private monitor is great.

The hat.

And some ear monitor with a Mic.

I like the simplicity of private speaker monitor.

Keep in mind we all have different oppurtunities to play with others.

She has 2 fantastic groups she could play with.
But I’m trying to get her more comfortable to join in and play what she can and make mistakes in front of others.

[foldedpath]

Sorry to sound crass, but she needs to suck it up and play the crapolla out of her instrument...

I agree in principle, but the reality is that it takes time. Some people can't do this in one big jump.

Here's a story from my own experience. My Significant Other picked up her fiddle again about the same time I started learning mandolin, around 10 years ago. She played violin as a child, but hadn't touched it for most of her adult life. When she got back into it, she insisted on practicing on the second floor of our house, so people outside couldn't hear. I had to actually walk out on the street in front of the house to make sure nothing could be heard!

Then she started taking lessons from a local violin teacher, who got her started playing OldTime and Irish fiddle tunes. That led to a short while playing in a group class of adult beginners, at a very low level. Then she was invited to an OldTime jam where she spent most of the evening hanging back with another nervous beginner at the back of the room. Eventually she started participating a little more, and getting more interested in Irish tunes. That led to both of us joining a beginner level Irish/OldTime session at a local pub. Then another session out of town at a slightly higher level. Eventually we formed a small band with some friends, and she played her first gig.

Now she joins intermediate to high level sessions on a regular basis. We performed together with some friends on a gig this past St. Patrick's day. Made a few bucks, but it was mostly just for fun. She has turned into a very good fiddler, and comfortable playing in a group setting.

This process didn't happen overnight. It took years to reach both a level of skill in playing and also a "don't care what I sound like, this is good enough" level of confidence in playing with others. Those two things aren't necessarily linked, and don't always improve at the same rate.

With my own experience in mind, I think the OP may be barking up the wrong tree with trying to use an electronic monitor to help her, in effect, "hide" within the context of a Contra band. That just reinforces the problem, which is that she isn't comfortable being heard. She needs to get into a group where it doesn't matter that she's heard, and that could mean something with less pressure than a Contra band. Maybe a local OldTime jam, which are usually very welcoming and supportive. Or invite some players you know to a kitchen session at your house.

I know this goes against the OP's idea that his wife needs to get into a higher-level playing situation to improve her skills, but it sounds like her people skills need more attention. The musical skill will follow after she gets comfortable in a group setting, and that has to happen first.

[dhergert]

Ah a few folks get it. ...

So far you've managed to insult a lot of very experienced people who have tried to help with real help instead of muting the banjo and amplifying it... That's ok and that's your right. But it occurs to me that you may be approaching this wrong.

For the best care, a doctor should never treat his own family.

Maybe instead of mother-henning your wife, you should arrange with your wife to get her some lessons with an objective, experienced banjo teacher/player who will teach her many things that she needs, and mostly, will give her assignments out in the real world (like the jams and bands you're referring to) for experience. If your wife is suffering from stage fright, maybe that teacher can give her a hand with that.

It just seems like you're not finding answers you want, including your posts at Banjo Hangout and here, both places which have lots of very experienced banjo players. This usually means you're not asking the right questions at the right places. A good teacher will probably give your wife tools to handle all the questions that you're asking and more, for much less money and emotional investment on your part. And if your wife does this independently instead of under even the most subtle pressure from you, she'll probably go much further than any other way.

[Roger Adams]

I play the banjo, and there is no way to do what I think you are wanting to do, IMHO. Banjos are "in your face" instruments that don't hide well in a jam of any kind. Most folks are timid and unsure of themselves when first beginning to play with others, but the more exposure and experience, the easier it becomes. Most "jammers" are pretty understanding and supportive of the efforts of beginners - at least that is my experience. Bring her into the pool, and she will learn to swim.

I wish you both the best. It's great having a spouse to share the music with!

[Bertram Henze]

If it’s “normal” volume she WILL NOT PLAY IT, Period.

I am sorry to hear that, because it's not just about music. Hiding is fear, and fear is always wrong. No way to happiness with that in tow.

[allenhopkins]

I am sorry to hear that, because it's not just about music. Hiding is fear, and fear is always wrong. No way to happiness with that in tow.

In the end this isn't really a "hardware" question, or even a musical question. A musician who's been playing for eight years, and whose technique is as good as the other band members', is still fearful of making a single mistake, so plays so softly that she's really not able to contribute to the group to the degree her skill should allow. Even though she's been in the group for four years,* and the other members accept her and don't criticize her playing.

This is an emotional issue, and although I may sound a bit harsh, I would not seek a "hardware" solution, but would address the underlying emotional/psychological context. Perhaps ensemble playing is just not for her.

I have some acrophobia, a fear of heights. I could seek to overcome it through therapy, behavioral modification, whatever. Now I just stay away from high places. It's not a "solution," it's problem avoidance, but it's a modus vivendi that keeps me from repeatedly encountering uncomfortable situations.

Just my 2¢.

* I think this is what I gathered from the OP's response; sorry if I misunderstood.

[Beanzy]

I’d have to agree with many of the above posts.
But there is still the possibility of building the reassurance and proving her own capabilities to herself before throwing in the towel.

If you get used to recording the band or jams live lots and lots of times, without making any fuss about it. Then choose a few of the best of those to use as play-along tracks, which she can practice along to while putting the volume wherever she does feel comfortable. She can mess up with all her friends playing along, but none of them hearing her. Play them overvspeakers in a good sized room to get used to her own sound reaching out into the space and being heard back. The tracks will probably be mix-minus her anyway from what you say. So she won’t have to play over much of her own sound. After a bit she’ll possibly feel confident enough to play up where she’s been practicing to the tracks, as she’ll have proved many times to herself that it sounds ok.

Definitely do the hat, they’re not good just for reflecting your own sound, they’re great if you tip the brim to block out any over loud player too so you can focus on your own head-space. However the hat could have the opposite effect at first and let her play even quieter as she’ll still hear it, so that’ll still be a hurdle to jump later. But eventually the confidence in her playing should come from hearing how what she is doing fits in fine.

I would be careful that she isn’t feeling that she’s letting you down too. Maybe just keep as objective any eye out for signs of that coming in to play if you can.

[catmandu2]

...which brings us back to the banjo.

The banjo is an excellent instrument to play if you want to be HEARD. It's demanding, in that, it's like a drum. It requires rhythmic precision, always. In this technical respect, it is 'harder' to execute than mandolin (double-courses are more forgiving in techniques such as tremolo, ornamentation, even rudimentary alternate picking; mndln easier to control dynamics/easier to blend, etc, etc). A banjo is all about articulation - it's something you can't hide. A banjo, or drum, is out front, sonically. When a banjo/drum makes a mistake, it is heard.

Jumping in (with a group) with a banjo means a somewhat steeper learning curve. Banjo, or drums, or accordian...excellent instruments to play if projection and articulation is your pursuit; probably not the best choices to ease into it. A drummer simply must be confident, and precise. A mndln will provide a somewhat 'easier' entree into the realm of group play.

I understand that the banjo is what she prefers. She may learn to like the mndln, for other (the aforementioned) reasons.

*ah, I see grizzly adams beat me to it.

[mswlogo]

foldedpath nailed it. That’s exactly the sort of thing that happens.

You can’t expect some people to just jump in and whale on it, as some have suggested.

She has NOT been in a group for 4 years. We have tried different jams and bands off and on over the past few years.

And is now LESS whiling to try because she does not like sitting there not playing.
She knows she won’t, and won’t until she can hear herself better than others can.

It’s not an unreasonable request, and it’s much easier with the fiddle. And I’ve taken for granted it’s easier with the fiddle.

It was not until recently she realized what was really going on.

She enjoys playing and she wouldn’t be playing anything if I didn’t encourage her and I taught her quite a bit.

One problem is there are very few Tenor Banjo teachers. Part of the reason I got the mandolin.
She has tried 4 teachers. None were really ideal. Some were down right bad.

She would have loved to play fiddle, but she just didn’t have enough dexterity or was willing to
do as much work as she saw me go through.

Considering, she’s done pretty good.

I really don’t think some suggestions here understand how difficult it is.
Part of it is she has zero experience when she started over 50.
Many folks that played something when young have huge leg up.

I don’t have a spare guitar player in my back pocket that could play with her, at her “limit”, for an hour or two a day for a couple years. Because that’s what it would take.

But there are groups that do meet nearby, regularly we can join in.
Extremely forgiving groups. Playing tunes that are in her head.

But she is to afraid to play loud enough to hear her self, which she is very capable of doing.

She also struggles with learning how to drop notes and play what she can.
Because she just doesn’t have the experience doing it. She needs to be in a group.

She does a ton with recorded music. But it’s not the same as playing with others.

I think if she could just get over, making mistakes in public, she’d be fine after half a dozen sessions.
And she could drop and “assistance” tool like the personal monitor suggested.


She just needs to get over this difficult hump. And see, hear that not everyone else is playing perfect either.

But she is not relaxed enough to be able to do that.

[mswlogo]

...which brings us back to the banjo.

The banjo is an excellent instrument to play if you want to be HEARD. It's demanding, in that, it's like a drum. It requires rhythmic precision, always. In this technical respect, it is 'harder' to execute than mandolin (double-courses are more forgiving in techniques such as tremolo, ornamentation, even rudimentary alternate picking; mndln easier to control dynamics/easier to blend, etc, etc). A banjo is all about articulation - it's something you can't hide. A banjo, or drum, is out front, sonically. When a banjo/drum makes a mistake, it is heard.

Jumping in (with a group) with a banjo means a somewhat steeper learning curve. Banjo, or drums, or accordian...excellent instruments to play if projection and articulation is your pursuit; probably not the best choices to ease into it. A drummer simply must be confident, and precise. A mndln will provide a somewhat 'easier' entree into the realm of group play.

I understand that the banjo is what she prefers. She may learn to like the mndln, for other (the aforementioned) reasons.

*ah, I see grizzly adams beat me to it.

It’s a small, no resonator tenor banjo. She is not playing claw hammer or Scruggs on 5 string with a resonator. She is not playing rhythm. She is playing melody on it. It’s a very sweet sounding instrument.

So yeah, it is a little tricky to play it softly, even though it’s not a powerful banjo.

So yeah, your right, it is still a banjo. And meant to cut through and be heard.

I specifically bought an oval hole mandolin (less bark).

Because it is also down at your waist and projects away, I don’t know if the mandolin will be any easier in regard to hearing herself better than bandmates can.

I think being in the same “octave” as the melody instruments will help.
Maybe.

I think always playing melody an octave below the always present fiddles playing melody, as a beginner, learning by ear, has contributed to the problem.

[catmandu2]

Fwiw, I was writing all about flat-picked banjo - pertaining to a direct comparison with mndln technique, etc. (My point was mostly that - (any) banjo plays "rhythm" by virtue of the sonic characteristics of the instrument; and that it's a most vital, distinct, stand-out element in the music. To put it another way - it's an easy instrument with which to make a noticeable mistake.)

Good luck. I'm hoping mndln will help out here...resume banjo when confidence grows, etc.

[Hewines]

Just let people play, and give supportive feedback, it's not easy but it is what it is. If I read this thread about me I'd be gutted. It's patronising.

[pops1]

I have a Gibson trapdoor tenor, I put a 5 string neck on it, but the trapdoor allows you to open it and let's the player hear themselves better. It actually changes the sound of the banjo somewhat, but not much. It definitely let's you hear yourself better. They are nice sounding banjo's and I wish I played it more.

[colorado_al]

But more seriously, does her banjo have a back/resonator on it? If so, just take it off and she'll get more sound directed at her and less towards the group.

[mswlogo]

Fwiw, I was writing all about flat-picked banjo - pertaining to a direct comparison with mndln technique, etc. (My point was mostly that - (any) banjo plays "rhythm" by virtue of the sonic characteristics of the instrument; and that it's a most vital, distinct, stand-out element in the music. To put it another way - it's an easy instrument with which to make a noticeable mistake.)

Good luck. I'm hoping mndln will help out here...resume banjo when confidence grows, etc.

Ah, I see where your coming from. Thanks for your clarification.

[mswlogo]

But more seriously, does her banjo have a back/resonator on it? If so, just take it off and she'll get more sound directed at her and less towards the group.

It does not.

Keep in mind she may think she is being heard more than she really is.

[foldedpath]

I think always playing melody an octave below the always present fiddles playing melody, as a beginner, learning by ear, has contributed to the problem.

You may be on to something there. If the majority of the group is playing in one pitch range, which is typical with fiddle-heavy groups, then anything outside that pitch range is more exposed.

I will freely admit to "ghosting" a few notes on my mandolin in a high level Irish session, when it's a tune I haven't played in a long time, and I'm in "tune recovery" mode. My fiddler S.O. does that too. It's easy when you're all in the same pitch range, because everyone is covering for everyone else. If you drop a note, someone else will have it. A tenor banjo playing an octave below everyone else doesn't have that same support system.

So the mandolin may be a good idea. Let us know how that goes. And try this first, before jumping into an electronic monitor solution that will only isolate her further from the communal flow of music.

[catmandu2]

Yep mndln can be a very discrete little instrument - ive known others to exploit this from the instrument as well. Banjo - not exactly built for subtlety

Personally mndln really helped develop my fiddling - packing along mndln in a double case allowed me to start taking my fdl out in public asap. I always say - the best 'tool' for learning fdl is a dbl case.

[CES]

Didn’t mean to minimize her anxiety issues/nerves. I get it, I really do. And, FP, I agree that being comfortable playing with others is something that takes time for most people, myself included. Probably the best thing that happened to help me relax occurred after playing one day in church. I made a couple of mistakes on a song I know very well...just flat out flubbed a couple of notes and a chord change, and was pretty disgusted with myself. After the service I apologized to my band mates, none of whom even noticed the “glaring” mistakes. I also received numerous compliments that day from the congregation. Light bulb clicked, and I’ve been able to channel my inner Honey Badger since. But, that experience was the tip of several years of ice bergs leading up to it.

Hope you find a solution that works.

[Beanzy]

She does a ton with recorded music. But it’s not the same as playing with others.

If she hasn’t being doing that with the sound she’s actually immersed in then it’s not really going to get over the confidence issues. If she’s immersed in the actual sound of the real players (without them actually being there to judge) then her memory of the occasion recorded will fill in much of the reality. That’s partly why it’s important to use recordings of the actual situation. The aim is to trigger a recollection the actual situation, but remove the main stumbling block. Then after confidence is built she’ll be starting from a higher step up.

[pit lenz]

After having read many well meant advices covering the whole spectrum between "personal amp" and "Suck it up", that seemed not to satisfy you, my first itch to reply was something like "Good luck showing up at a jam with an electric personal monitor. If until then nobody gave her the looks, there you go..."

But may I (with all due respect) pose the following, maybe uncomfortable question:

Does SHE really want to play in ensembles or might it rather be YOU who wants her to play in groups?
Don't get me wrong, I do share your love to play music with people (that's what's all about music for me) but might it be that she will be much more comfortable playing either on her own or with you without facing mistake fright issues?

Maybe dhergert is not too way off in assuming that you might be mother-henning your wife here.
I think there is no easy way out of that, only one that your wife will find herself. For sure there will be no technical crutch to help you out of that hole.

As allenhopkins stated, his way of staying away from high places will not cure his arcophobia but leaves him happy living with it.

Seriously, I highly value your effort to find a jam solution for your wife but please give it a thought to look at your personal goals and expectations in this...

...and yes, a hat would be my recommendation, along with a nice glass of beer...

peace
pit

[mswlogo]

One of our worst fights we ever had was when I “pushed” her into us buying a boat.
20 years later she cried her eyes out when I sold it.
We also had to push her mom to get on a boat.
Her mom loved going on boats later on.
Same goes for “pushing” her to go contra dancing.
Same goes for “pushing” to change jobs.
Same goes for getting married (close to 40 years now)
Same goes for having kids.
Same goes for not having more kids.

She pushes me to practice and sign up for fiddle camp.
She even researches to find a camp I might enjoy.

We are each other’s coach. That’s what being married is all about.

I’ll decide if I’m “pushing” too hard and decide if it’s worth it or not.

I’ve made mistakes just like playing the wrong notes in a band.
But I usually get most of them right, eventually.

She might not even go for the hat. She’ll be more worried about hat hair than playing the right notes.