Cuatro tuned to low G? Double coursed low G instruments?

[pinkmoon]

Hey all!

I've been lurking around the forums for a while and need help with my recent instrument hunt.

I'm trying to find a sub $700 instrument that has doubled courses and is either tuned or can be set up with thicker strings to the G an octave below a mandolin. Bear with me because I've considered a whole ton of different ideas .

I want to use it for lyrical tremolo picking and finger picking chordal textures. I'm open to Nylon strings but there are so few that have doubled courses. A balalaika has the sweetest tone to my ears but you can't do that much on it in regards to chords and I already have so many instruments in that range. I realize that I may just have to use different instruments for those jobs but I'd like to find one that can do both.

The gold tone octave mandolins and various cheaper citterns for around $700 seem like the most logical ideas since they are tuned lower and are probably good for tremolo but I'm just not crazy about the sound. The cittern has 5 courses which is awesome I just can't find a lot of examples of them being played in the ways I'm interested in.

After playing a Puerto Rican cuatro I like the sound, it has 5 courses which is better for some finger picking chords, and is a small body with a wide neck which feels great for tremolo picking. Do people generally feel that it's easier to do tremolo on two strings when they are closer together? I kind of prefer the wider neck and string spacing of a cuatro.

Then I realized a 12 string guitar would probably accomplish so much of what I want but I'm worried there won't be enough space on the fretboard for tremolo work especially if I try to tune it in unisons instead of octaves. Also 12 strings are usually huge and would be difficult to hold at an angle for tremolo playing. I've been reading about people saying you can't change a 12 string to unisons even if you re-cut the nut because the fretboard won't be wide enough. I'm going to go try some 12 strings today and give it a good shot. There are smaller body 12 strings like this one: https://reverb.com/item/7172617-vint...natural-w-case. They might be easier to hold at an angle for tremolo playing.

There's the viola caipira which seems like a perfect larger lower tuned cuatro but I can't find any online.

The 8 string baritone uke is cool but I haven't seen any tuned that low. I have an 8 string tenor which I LOVE but I definitely couldn't tune it an octave below it's current tuning. Or could I? There are some cool examples of baritone 4 strings tuned down for example this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYNz...?v=wYNzDsvuOKg
How feasible is that with an 8 string? Do they make them bigger than baritone? An 8 string acoustic nylon guitar? LOL.

Right now I am most inclined to buy this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/14280072847...m=142800728473

Which is set up to be tuned:
B3 B2 • E4 E3 • A3 A3 • D4 D4 • G4 G4

Which I want to be able to tune to either:
G2 G2 • C3 C3 • F3 F3 • A3 A3 • D4 D4
(all unisons)
and
G3 G2 • C4 C3 • F3 F3 • A3 A3 • D4 D4

I'd like to be able to change strings to switch between those two tunings but if not the second option is more appealing to me.

But then I have so many questions about the cuatro. How is the intonation? There is no truss rod is that a problem? Will a luthier be able to set up that to be tuned to what I want and fix some of the intonation issues if there are some?

If you bothered to read this far I really appreciate it. I wanted to write less but I feel like some understanding string-obsessed people will tolerate my indecisiveness.

[Seter]

I used to have a Puerto Rican cuatro, but it was much cheaper and lower quality than the one you're considering. It had terrible intonation partly due to faulty fret spacing and an absurdly high action. Looking at your tuning ideas, the Greek bouzouki springs to mind; great for tremolo and tuned exactly as you'd like, except for the absence of the G course you want. I'm not sure if someone has made a 10 string Greek Bouzouki. There is the bajo quinto from Mexico, you could tune it a step down and it would somewhat match your desired tuning other than the bass strings. They're not normally played melodically though. Your idea is certainly something interesting to ponder, keep us posted.

[pinkmoon]

Well the seller posted a video which was kind of them but I can't really tell how the intonation is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_I6CpXlGpBY

It's clearly out of tune in parts but I can't tell why... :/ Any thoughts?

Also I tried some 12 strings today and was reminded of why I have never bought one. Incredibly beautiful for shimmering chords but hard to play for anything else. Some wonderful single note lead lines but for something like tremolo over two strings it is very uncomfortable. I've just always felt that dreadnoughts are gigantic.

I suppose an octave mandolin or bouzouki really is a good option too but I'm pretty attached to the idea of a cuatro as long as the intonation is ok.

An octave mandolin on a guitar body seems like a very good fit too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qp4eaXzgw0

Thanks so much!

[DavidKOS]

I would not recommend a PR cuatro as a fingerstyle instrument. It's meant to be steel string and played with a pick.

I suppose you could set it up and do what you want, but other instruments would do much better, like a cheap bouzouki from Romania.

[Jim Garber]

Another possibility is the Laúd. It has 12 double strings and the standard tuning for the Spanish version is close to your desired tuning. Scale is shorter than the Puerto Rican cuatro (470mm/18.5in)

1st: A4 A4
2nd: E4 E4
3rd: B3 B3
4th: F#3 F#3
5th: C#3 C#3
6th: G#2 G#2

Additional information here. I know that site/dealer/luthier from Portuguese guitarra info. Actually that instrument might be yet another possibility.

He also has a page on Viola Caipira and sells them.

Carvalho in Portugal makes some decent instruments for reasonable prices. Hobgoblin USA has a viola caipira for $435.

[pinkmoon]

I would not recommend a PR cuatro as a fingerstyle instrument. It's meant to be steel string and played with a pick.

I suppose you could set it up and do what you want, but other instruments would do much better, like a cheap bouzouki from Romania.

I thought bouzoukis were meant to be played with a pick too? Or at least I thought for sure people would feel that way about octave mandolins. What would make a bouzouki better for finger picking than a cuatro? Also what are the differences between bouzouki and octave mandolin typically?

Thanks for your input!

[pinkmoon]

Another possibility is the Laúd. It has 12 double strings and the standard tuning for the Spanish version is close to your desired tuning. Scale is shorter than the Puerto Rican cuatro (470mm/18.5in)


Additional information here. I know that site/dealer/luthier from Portuguese guitarra info. Actually that instrument might be yet another possibility.

He also has a page on Viola Caipira and sells them.

Carvalho in Portugal makes some decent instruments for reasonable prices. Hobgoblin USA has a viola caipira for $435.

These are awesome links! I missed the hobgoblin one. That is a serious contender for sure. It seems people definitely play the viola caipira with their fingers but sometimes finger picks too. I wonder if there is a significant difference between it and a 12 string - with the smaller body and less strings on the fretboard.

[pinkmoon]

Even though the cuatro isn't a fingerstyle instrument I really like the sound of it for tremolo.

My only concern with the one listed is that it has no truss rod, it's made out of Yagrumo wood, and it seems like the intonation is off a bit.

I suppose this cuatro is the best bet then:

https://www.amazon.com/Oscar-Schmidt...ustomerReviews

I kind of grew attached to that ebay listing and would prefer it especially with the cut out shape... just really don't know if it will last and play well. The video does help a bit though.

[Seter]

I didn't notice you meant to play this hypothetical instrument fingerstyle. You can play bouzoukis fingerstyle if you want even if it's less conventional, it's easier than a 12 string guitar thanks to the wider spacing. For cuatros, all I can say is steer clear of the cheap Harmonia ones. Puerto Rican cuatros are an interesting instrument in their own right. I've been intrigued by lauds too, but I need to focus on improving my skills on the assortment of instruments I've already accumulated before picking up another I think.

[DavidKOS]

Another possibility is the Laúd.

Laud is a great instrument - but a lot like a 6 course cuatro in many ways.

Usually tuned all 4th.

These are awesome links! I missed the hobgoblin one. That is a serious contender for sure. It seems people definitely play the viola caipira with their fingers but sometimes finger picks too. I wonder if there is a significant difference between it and a 12 string - with the smaller body and less strings on the fretboard.

Most of those instruments are lighter strung and at lower string tension. There is a difference in feel.

Even though the cuatro isn't a fingerstyle instrument I really like the sound of it for tremolo.

My only concern with the one listed is that it has no truss rod, it's made out of Yagrumo wood, and it seems like the intonation is off a bit.

That should not be a problem because if you set it up for fingerstyle playing, you would be using very light strings.

You might look up the Portuguese guitar as Jim Garber suggested for ideas about playing fingerstyle on similar instruments.

[pinkmoon]

The seller sent me a video of the intonation and it is fantastic. The action looks great too.

My only last concern I have is that it will crack or warp in the next NY winter. My apartment gets pretty dry in the winter. The body is made of majó, top of yagrumo, and fingerboard of acasia. I saw that the seller had one made in cedar so maybe that would be a better one to buy.

I intend to get a hard case for it and buy a plastic sponge type humidifier to stick in the sound hole. Will that be enough to prevent it from being damaged?

Thanks you so much!!

[Seter]

Do you know what portions of it are made with solid wood vs laminate?

When I had my poorly intonated cuatro, I ended up tuning in open A overtones tuning (A-E-A-C♯-E) and playing it with a slide whenever I played it.

[Jim Garber]

The seller posted a very nice video on the eBay listing. It does sound wonderful— very sweet and full. Makes me have CAS.

[pinkmoon]

Yeah I agree. I think I'm just going to go with it because the seller clearly has lots of positive reviews and said they have never had any complaints about this. I think I'll just get the hard case to be safe and put some humidity packets in it in the winter.

Thanks for all the help.

[Jim Garber]

I had a good friend who produced an anthology CD of various ethnic music from around the New York City area. One was an excellent cuatro player who played a cuatro made by a luthier in NYC. It was a very nice instrument and my friend bought one as well. This one in Puerto Rico on eBay looks pretty good though. Let us know if you buy it and what your impressions are.

[pinkmoon]

Alright I didn't end up trying the PR cuatro but ordered an Oscar Schmidt. The thing had barely any resonance or bass to it at all. It was SO quiet and lackluster in tone. I don't even think changing the strings from the factory ones would have made a big enough difference.

It seems like cuatros generally don't have a lot of lower frequencies to begin with hence the higher tuning and style of playing - really the top two strings are used a ton by most players and I love the way they sound but it probably doesn't have the low end I am hoping for.

I'm starting to think a cittern makes more sense since it is actually what I want in terms of lower tuning and unison strings.

So where can I find a good cittern for less than $700?

[pinkmoon]

I was tempted to buy a $100 harmonia cuatro and I did a fair amount of work on it - banged some frets back in place, polished them, lowered the saddle as low as it would go... but then the saddle still needed to come down for the intonation to improve and it can't. There are other intonation inconsistencies with it too. Definitely not worth the work. The action made it frustrating to play. I'm sure the $500+ one from PR would have been a lot better but I didn't want to spend the cash.

I went down a different route - nylon. Take a look at the below thread to see what instrument I ended up converting to octave mandolin that actually does sound good. A bari uke not 8 strings but it sounds good at least:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...e-GCEA-or-GDAE