Upstrokes in bluegrass rhythm

[Bluegrasstjej]

Ok, I've been asking about this here and there but noone seems to know what I'm talking about.

When a mandolin player plays bluegrass, he/she plays rhythm a lot. Bluegrass rhythm on the mando is a lot of chopping, which means cutting off the sound of the chord on beat number 2 and 4. What we do is downstrokes on the chords. BUT, every bluegrass mandolin picker I've seen and heard also does upstrokes here and there. It often seems they start the downstroke chop with an upstroke, just before the downstroke. Or, they do a series of down-upstrokes. I can do the later, reasonably, but not the first mentioned technique.
Everyone does it but noone who teaches bluegrass mandolin in books teaches it. Can anyone explain how to do? I know HOW to do it but not how to get it to suit in the rhythm.

Do you understand what I'm talking about? I want to get my back-up more interesting, by learning this.

I have lots of recordings to listen to and try to learn from, but if someone could explain what they do and how to make it work with the rhythm, I'd be thankful.

[Mando4Life]

I think it falls under finding the groove as well as experimenting with different tunes and time sigs...and well practicing....

Give a good hard listen to Sam B sometime....if you look up rhythm in the dictionary Sam's photo is there.

If you can track down a tune called 'BT' with Sam, Edgar Meyer, and Joshua Bell it will give you a good lesson in rhythm.

Good Luck...it will click for you eventually.

WBL

[Fred Keller]

Here's a potentially helpful idea:

The basic chop pattern is rest/chop/rest/chop. You're chunking on the 2nd and 4th beat.

Try hearing the beat in eight notes: one-and-two-and, etc.

Now try hitting an upstroke on the "and." It's "simple" (simple in terms of theory, not practice) syncopation. It can be used to highlight a particular phrase or passage. It can also be integrated into your chop in tons of ways:

rest/chop/halfrest-upstroke/chop (sounds like mmmm-chunk-mm-cha-chunk).

Experiment and, as always, listen to the folks who play the rhythm you like.

Hope that makes sense

[Chip Booth]

Here's something I have learned about "upchucking before downchopping", as I have come to think of this rythm technique. #If your timing is not really good and you put it in exactly the right place (and I mean exactly) it can make your rythm sound like you are tripping over your own feet and falling down a flight of stairs, or maybe hippucing. #Sorry for the analogies, I am refering to the "cha" upstroke in Fred's "mmmm-chunk-mm-cha-chunk". #I learned this about my own playing a while back, and a friend who is learning mando now is experiencing the same thing, we just had this discussion. #I find it safer to upstroke after the downstroke rather than before it, so on the and of 2 rather than the and of 1, for example. #This creates a different groove of course, but is somehow more forgiving. #I asked Radim Zenkl about this once and he felt the same way. #

Not to say you can't play this rythm, I use it regularly now, but only after some practice and taking care to make sure I am really in the groove and keeping the timing solid.

Chip

[Jim Gallaher]

I love the way someone like Mike Compton uses the upstrokes in unexpected, syncopated ways to propel the rhythm of the song. Sometimes it's a "Short" downstroke followed by a "Long" upstroke.

I approach the mandolin player's role as the drummer in a jazz quartet approaches his role -- especially like the snare drum. Though I play bluegrass now, I played rhythm guitar in a jazz quartet once upon a time. I recall the drummer saying "It's my job to kick this band in the a** every now and then!" He meant that in a good way, I think. He varied his accents with interesting little off-beats and fills that made the music more interesting and sent his bandmates off into different directions during our "musical conversations".

When I hear Compton play, I recognize the same approach -- he "kicks everyone's a**" -- in a good way! I hear it (to a lesser degree) in Ricky Skaggs' approach to backup rhythms, as well.

[mando-tech]

Ok, I've been asking about this here and there but noone seems to know what I'm talking about.

When a mandolin player plays bluegrass, he/she plays rhythm a lot. Bluegrass rhythm on the mando is a lot of chopping, which means cutting off the sound of the chord on beat number 2 and 4. What we do is downstrokes on the chords. BUT, every bluegrass mandolin picker I've seen and heard also does upstrokes here and there. It often seems they start the downstroke chop with an upstroke, just before the downstroke. Or, they do a series of down-upstrokes. I can do the later, reasonably, but not the first mentioned technique.
Everyone does it but noone who teaches bluegrass mandolin in books teaches it. Can anyone explain how to do? I know HOW to do it but not how to get it to suit in the rhythm.

Do you understand what I'm talking about? I want to get my back-up more interesting, by learning this.

I have lots of recordings to listen to and try to learn from, but if someone could explain what they do and how to make it work with the rhythm, I'd be thankful.

...sure, -"upstroking" is done by all mandolinists who have been in this business long enough to become somewhat advanced,...with me, it got to be something that was just natural,...done usually at the end of my own vocal line or end of another band member's solo line, (either vocal or instrumental) Remember it has to be timed right or it will NOT work !

[Phil Goodson]

Mando-tech: You sure seem to answer a lot of decade old threads! (Like EVERY thread you post on.)

[Eric C.]

Mando-tech: You sure seem to answer a lot of decade old threads! (Like EVERY thread you post on.)

I have a theory that it is the site-owners bot account that periodically "bumps" old posts. (Kidding, but yes he does seem to be stuck on a browser window from 2005-2009)

[dadsaster]

To the decade old question - I find it helpful to move my arm twice as fast when chopping. (I actually figured this out by boom-chucking on the mandolin). When your arm going twice as fast, you have strong beats on your down swing and accents on your up swing. You can play tons of different syncopated rhythms by just deciding when to make contact with the strings.

[wildpikr]

I think it falls under finding the groove as well as experimenting with different tunes and time sigs...and well practicing....

Give a good hard listen to Sam B sometime....if you look up rhythm in the dictionary Sam's photo is there.

If you can track down a tune called 'BT' with Sam, Edgar Meyer, and Joshua Bell it will give you a good lesson in rhythm.

Good Luck...it will click for you eventually.

WBL

That tune is on a CD called "Short Trip Home" with Sam Bush, Edgar Meyer, Joshua Bell and Mike Marshall...it's a good one...the tune and the whole CD as well!

[Mandoplumb]

How does twice as fast Give stronger strokes on the down beat or for that matter more accent on the upstrokes. All I see it do is waste a lot of movement and tire out your hand faster. We talk of placing fingers down without picking up the one already down to make a smother and quicker run then move our right hand like a bird flying away.

[Phil Goodson]

How does twice as fast Give stronger strokes on the down beat or for that matter more accent on the upstrokes. All I see it do is waste a lot of movement and tire out your hand faster. We talk of placing fingers down without picking up the one already down to make a smother and quicker run then move our right hand like a bird flying away.

That was the way to do it 10 years ago. It's different now.

[Mark Gunter]

That was the way to do it 10 years ago. It's different now.

This is cracking me up, let it go.

[Mando Mort]

I like Chip Booth's concept of "Upchucking"...also I found this "old" post helpful as a result of it being brought back years later (I wasn't playing mando or on this site when the original post occurred).

[dadsaster]

How does twice as fast Give stronger strokes on the down beat or for that matter more accent on the upstrokes. All I see it do is waste a lot of movement and tire out your hand faster. We talk of placing fingers down without picking up the one already down to make a smother and quicker run then move our right hand like a bird flying away.

I should have been more clear and said "In the beginning, I find it easier to move the hand twice as fast...". For a 4/4 measure this means each arm movement is a 8th note. If you play just a basic chop on the 2 and 4, you will have "ghosted" attacks on every 8th note beat. Playing a boom-chuck pattern accomplishes this as well.

Once you internalize the speed/rhythm of the arm, you no longer need to swing it "like a bird flying away".

[Mark Gunter]

Once you internalize the speed/rhythm of the arm, you no longer need to swing it "like a bird flying away".

Seems to be one of mandoplumb's pet peeves, and it's understandable I suppose. Many of us, if analyzing rhythm or trying to show/teach folk about rhythm, speak about "ghost notes" or "ghost strokes" in understanding how a steady groove is accomplished with the right hand. When examples are given, we'll exaggerate that in order to exemplify the concept.

I think mandoplumb, and possibly others, object to this because "that's not the way you play." Maybe a legitimate objection, but I think pretty much every teacher who breaks things down like this for a "show and tell" purpose doesn't play like that. I still think it's helpful to teach like that, because you have to internalize the concept in your brain, even though you do not have to always be moving your hand in an exaggerated fashion.

Check this out: Watch videos of Bill Monroe chopping chords. In many instances you will see the small "jerk" of his hand counting the 1 and 3 beats, while his full chop strokes are down on the 2 & 4. THAT's what we're talking about. Even if you don't count with the little right hand movement, you are feeling those beats in your brain, so that the right hand goes in the correct direction on the next note or strum or chop.

Any time you describe how to practice, learn, or feel rhythm with "ghost" movements, you can expect objections here. Comes with the territory. We don't all learn the same way.

EDITED: Another thing ... I have to admit the possibility that the way I think about rhythm is so wrong that it explains why I'm not a very good player.

[Mandoplumb]

I am not opposed to using whatever helps you learn. Just learn it and give up the crutches. I guess I get it honest,my dad was one of the best banjo players I have heard and from 6feet away you could hardly see any movement of his left hand except the thumb. Watch Tim White on Song of the Mountains, see how much wasted movement in his left hand. He never dropped the crutches but in spite of that he became'a good banjo player. Wonder how much smother and faster he would be if he wasn't wasting all that movement.

[Mark Gunter]

I am not opposed to using whatever helps you learn. Just learn it and give up the crutches. I guess I get it honest,my dad was one of the best banjo players I have heard and from 6feet away you could hardly see any movement of his left hand except the thumb. Watch Tim White on Song of the Mountains, see how much wasted movement in his left hand. He never dropped the crutches but in spite of that he became'a good banjo player. Wonder how much smother and faster he would be if he wasn't wasting all that movement.

Mandoplumb, was your dad playing clawhammer banjo, or finger rolls on it? I think that'd make a lot of difference on how somebody's hand would move.

[Mandoplumb]

He played bluegrass three finger roll, but he moved his fingers just enough to get the job done. His thumb worked back and forth to the fifth string so there was movement there and once in a while his first finger moved to the next string but you could hardly tell it moved and is middle finger plucked the bottom string, moving just enough to sound it and you couldn't swear it was moving if you were standing any ways from him. His playing was smooth as silk. Early Scruggs was the closest in movement I have ever seen and he shows more movement than Dad. I'm not saying less movement is a sign of a great banjo player, but I do think it contributes to it and I think that is why I ration my movement.

[dadsaster]

Efficiency of movement is essential to playing well at speed. Even a good clawhammer banjo player will have a much more compact hand movement than the average. With mandolin, I usually see less efficiency in the fretting hand (flying fingers) than the picking hand.

I still think what a beginning player needs to hear and be shown to get a concept and what they will end up doing are two entirely different things. When I was learning baseball my coach would tell me to "keep my eye on the ball". It turns out every batter loses sight of the ball at around 10-15 feet out. The instruction, however, caused me to focus more on the ball, resulting in more consistency at the plate.