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Thread: Schaller for Schaller

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    Default Schaller for Schaller

    Does anyone know if older Schallers can be replaced with the new Grand Tune Schallers? If so is it as simple as just dropping in the new set into existing drilled holes?
    My mandolin is some 30 years old and might need a new set.

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    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    I don't know the answer to your question but I have the GrandTune on my Gilchrist A3 and they are wonderful.
    I'm pretty sure there are discussions pertaining to your question elsewhere on the Cafe.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Are your old Schaller's worm over or worm under? If you don't know post a picture. The post spacing should be the same, the screw holes *might* have to be moved.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    My Schallers are worm over and I found a picture of the Grand Tunes which are worm under.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    You're going to need the worm over model. Hopefully Schaller will make them so they turn the right way. Grover took the shortcut on their newer tuners and used the same worm for each.

    Their webpage only shows worm under. That doesn't mean they don't make them worm over.

    For anyone looking to see the difference between the placement of worm under vs worm over tuners Paul Hostetter's page has some excellent illustration images that put it into perspective.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Mike, thanks. The next step will be to find out from Schaller somehow.

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    'A' Mandolins using Snakehead build styles would tend to be worm over .

    'F' seem to be continuing to be worm under, as followng the build traditions have sorted themselves out.
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Yes my mandolin is an F-style built in 1979 with worm over Schallers. Well is disassembling a new set of Grand Tunes in order to change them to worm over really feasible? I could probably become accustomed to "reverse" tuning part.
    Last edited by dorenac; May-16-2018 at 12:38pm.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    'A' Mandolins using Snakehead build styles would tend to be worm over .

    'F' seem to be continuing to be worm under, as followng the build traditions have sorted themselves out.
    Most of the F styles built by Gibson from the late 20's through part of the 70's used worm over tuners. Other builders use them as well. You can get anything you want in worm under and yes the industry has gone back to worm under but there are a large number on F style instruments out there with worm over.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Quote Originally Posted by dorenac View Post
    Yes my mandolin is an F-style built in 1979 with worm over Schallers. Well is disassembling a new set of Grand Tunes in order to change them to worm over really feasible? I could probably become accustomed to "reverse" tuning part.
    It was possible to reassemble old Schaller's, that doesn't mean you can do it with the new ones. The new ones don't resemble the old ones in the way they appear to be assembled.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    It is really easy to get used to turning backwards. Before there was options for old Gibsons I put new tuners on my A2, the spacing was off so I simply cut the tuners at the screw hole dead center. This allowed the spacing to be correct and the screw would still hold the tuner just fine. I turned them around because the screw holes matched up better and turned them backwards. Even tho I don't play it much these days when I do it's almost automatic to turn the opposite way.
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    Registered User O. Apitius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    The new Schaller GrandTune tuners are the best made and functioning tuners on the market as far as I'm concerned. I've been told, but can't confirm, that they will supply them in a worm-over configuration on request. If so, I also don't know what the direction of rotation would be for these. They cannot be disassembled and reconfigured like the older version so that is not an option. I would contact Schaller and ask about worm-over availability and tuning direction. Here is a contact page for them.

    https://schaller.info/en/contact

    The bushings on the GT tuners require a post hole diameter of .348" (letter "S" drill) StewMac has a reamer of this size but it requires a pilot hole of 1/4" to work. Either way the old holes are larger and would have to be plugged and re-drilled to use the new bushings. I'm sure Schaller would advise against using the existing bushings but I believe that as long as they are accurately spaced, they would be fine although not quite as good in quality or fit.

    I don't think that the mounting screw holes will line up either but you can fill the old holes with round toothpicks and a bit of glue then re-drill for the new tuners. The GTs come with instructions on how to properly center the screw holes for a no-stress installation.

    All that said, if you want really good tuners IMO it would be worth the problems, provided you can get them in a worm-over configuration.

    On the other hand, it is quite possible that your existing tuners can be dismantled then thoroughly cleaned and lubed for a new lease on life. The screws that hold the cogs in place are prone to loosening over time. This can cause issues with smooth operation. I always add a tiny drop of the non-permanent, blue Loc-Tite when re-tightening these screws. The part that tends to show the most wear is the the little Mylar spacers that the worm rides on. When these get too worn, it affects the worm to cog alignment causing less than ideal function and leading to premature wear of the cog. I don't know if these spacers are available but Schaller has been very good to deal with in my experience so you might want to inquire about these at the same time that you ask about the worm-over GT tuners.

    Anyway, those are some of your options. Keep us posted of your progress and good luck.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    All the older Schallers I used had just sqaurish metal washer extended towards worm to hold it up against the holder on baseplate with no mylar at all. Just cleaning and lubing will do the trick. But always check for proper alignment of holes for posts as well as mounting screws. SOmething caused premature malfunction and it may damage any new tuners you use...
    Grovers used the mylar that can easily wear prematurely if the tuners are not properly aligned. I put some of these (famed Gibson Grovers) back to use by using thin washer instead of the mylar (but placed it under the metal piece, just to replace the missing thickness of mylar) and just lubed the metal with vaseline. Worked good that way.
    Adrian

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    Registered User O. Apitius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    I've been using Schaller machines (and others) since the early '80s and they always had a Mylar spacer that sat on top of the metal spacer. I assume it is there to reduce friction and give a smoother feel. Since these Mylar washers are clear, they are easily lost and I have seen some old tuners that have been worked on by a previous owner where the spacers were missing but should have been there. In that case, I have replaced them with spacers from old tuners that I have collected over the years. I call them spacers or shims because to my mind, their main function is to support the worm in proper alignment with the cog.

    When installed correctly, the Mylar shim rides under both the worm and the cog. The metal shim rides under the Mylar shim for support. Below is a photo showing the wrong way and the correct way of assembling them.



    BTW this is how I found these tuners installed on an F5L. The bass side tuners were prematurely worn and had to be replaced.
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    That's amazing. Probably took it apart and didn't bother to look at the other side to see how it went back together.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    That's amazing. Probably took it apart and didn't bother to look at the other side to see how it went back together.
    Yes. I wonder who?
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Hmmm, I may have to go check the two pairs I have
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Well I contacted Schaller directly and got a response that the term "worm over or under" they didn't understand. So I sent a photo of the tuners on my mandolin to illustrate. I am hoping for another response soon.

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Try it in German? they are a German company..

    as Mike may agree *, the prior tuner worm gears are cut either to turn CW or CCW..

    maybe use machinist terms RH/LH thread /rather than worm over and under..


    * he got the original set Jiri Lebeda fitted on my F type, , they turned CW in a worm under use,
    {CCW seems Normal in this crowd}
    reshuffling, in the backing plate, them they turned CCW in a worm over configuration
    to increase the tension on the string around the capstan. **

    When I got a set with the worm gear cut so it turned CCW in a worm under configuration,
    befitting how the peg head was drilled.

    ** when I had both I thought about making 2 mirror image sets,
    both would be one of each..

    lefty tighty or righty tighty?





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  23. #20
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Actually, they might refer to it as Clockwise and Anti-clockwise. I can provide pictures of the old syle Schallers in each orientation if that would help.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  24. #21
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    worms \\\\ vs //// .. now 70..never owned a cellphone, yet..
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  25. #22
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    There's always been confusion about the orientation of Schallers... I believe they called rhem reverse and normal (or standard), the standard being cut the same as thair guitar gears and reverse being the worm over (and they had the R letter in part number) but to confuse the world all the f style tuners left factory assembled as worm over regardles of the gear cut... so you had to have a look at the worms to see what they are ande the "normal" needed reassembly to correct configuration.
    Most US suppliers would call worm over tuners normal for mandolin and worm under as reverse. I managed to get at least two wrong Schaller sets even though I paid attention while ordering...
    Adrian

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    now 70..never owned a cellphone, yet..
    I've always hated telephones and only used them for the briefest of 1 or 2 minute conversations. Resisted cellphones for years until Mother got me one. Her logic was "NOW we can talk EVERYDAY and not worry about paying for long distance!" I thanked her, but replied, "I don't have NEWS occurring on a daily basis in my life." (she certainly doesn't either, but it gives her the opportunity to repeat stories I've heard for the last 60 years all over again!)

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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Well I think I've run up against a stone wall. Schaller has not responded further to my inquiry about worm over Grand Tune manchines, and in general worm overs don't seem to be around much anymore. Everything is worm under. My mandolin is a 40 year old Nugget and I'd hoped to upgrade the tuning machines which don't work as precisely as they probably once did. Haven't contacted Mike Kemnitzer for his feedback. And that may be my next best step.

    By the way Mandroid, I'm pushing 70 mysellf and fought cell phones tooth and nail until it became necessary to have one in order to keep in constant contact with my 96 year old father, just in case he needed me. Now I wouldn't be without the phone and still have my dad who turns 97 tomorrow.

  28. #25
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Schaller for Schaller

    Rubner did make a worm over tuner. They are out of stock but I would assume they should be back soon. What color Schaller's are you using?
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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