The great 440 Hz conspiracy, and why all of our music is wrong

[jshane]

I......This has about as much credibility as the flat earth theory..........

Wait... WHAT?? The Earth's not flat???

[dang]

A=430.5 Hz. That's mighty close to the Schumann Resonance frequency multiplied up to 430.6 Hz. Science, philosophy, physics, math, 430.5 or 6, converging... Dang, I'm starting to see mystical connections...

I had to stop and think for a sec, “wait, why did Tom mention my name? Mystical connection indeed!”

[sblock]

Also, an orchestra tunes to an "A" from the oboe, because (Wiki source) "According to the League of American Orchestras, this is done because the pitch is secure and its penetrating sound makes it ideal for tuning." ...

Ya gotta love it. A pitch is considered to be secure when it is encrypted using an unbreakable cipher, and only the designated recipients can hear it. A sound is penetrating when it can pass clean through a sound-proofed enclosure.

[Jairo Ramos]

Wait... WHAT?? The Earth's not flat???

The Earth is not flat, the earth is sharp...

[sblock]

It's also an open string on the viola and cello. There are C strings on viola and cello, but the A string is common across all three instruments.

Correct! In fact, every stringed instrument in the orchestra (bass viol, cello, viola, violin) has an open A string. Also, so do harps and guitars.

Also, when the orchestra folks can't quite hear the note that they should be tuning to, they strain their ears and tend to say, "Eh?!" Over the years, this remark has been misheard as a request for an "A". And that is why we use the A ("Eh") note for tuning in an orchestra.

At least, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it!

[Mandoplumb]

I still think it's a "weirdo" fluke of history that the pitch we use for reference isn't the Do (C) at the center of Western harmony, regardless of Hz. I assume countries that use the Roman letter system had a big influence on this, or maybe the second string of the violin?

How is middle C the center of western harmony? I thought it was middle C because it was the middle of the piano.

[sblock]

How is middle C the center of western harmony? I thought it was middle C because it was the middle of the piano.

Yes, and it's also middle C (C4) because it's found in the middle of the writing staff, which used to include both the treble and bass clefs, and later left out one line in the middle, to more easily distinguish the upper and lower halves of this staff. That line runs straight through middle C.

[DavidKOS]

How is middle C the center of western harmony? I thought it was middle C because it was the middle of the piano.

Yes, and it's also middle C (C4) because it's found in the middle of the writing staff, which used to include both the treble and bass clefs, and later left out one line in the middle, to more easily distinguish the upper and lower halves of this staff. That line runs straight through middle C.

Exactly. It's right between the treble and bass clefs in the "grand staff."

The grand staff may well have been derived from keyboard tablature.

[Mark Gunter]

Middle C is cosmic, man.

[foldedpath]

Ya gotta love it. A pitch is considered to be secure when it is encrypted using an unbreakable cipher, and only the designated recipients can hear it. A sound is penetrating when it can pass clean through a sound-proofed enclosure.

Okay, you're in trouble now. One of those guys... Rosicrucians, Masons, or Knights Templar will be hovering outside your window tonight in black helicopters, because you're questioning the A440 cipher.

I was never here, and I didn't say that...

[SincereCorgi]

DO was moveable - it could be sung at any pitch.

If we're talking about reference pitches, we're necessarily talking about Fixed Do. I don't know when that happened (i.e. when it got 'fixed'), but I am surprised to read that it seems to have happened before Moveable Do as we think of it today, as a system of learning to sight-sing. I don't know what that means for, like, Guido of Arezzo. Presumably when he pointed to a knuckle and said 'ut' he meant the pitch of the 'ut' pipe in the organ in next room.

[Bertram Henze]

A pitch is considered to be secure when it is encrypted using an unbreakable cipher, and only the designated recipients can hear it.

Playing in keys is tricky with that. The secure instrument will play in public keys for the recipients, while they hear a private key each...

[Dagger Gordon]

In my experience accordions can be a wee bit off, and tuning strictly to a guitar tuner to play along with them may not quite work.

Here is a discussion from an Accordion forum:
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3560

[Bertram Henze]

In my experience accordions can be a wee bit off, and tuning strictly to a guitar tuner to play along with them may not quite work.

Here is a discussion from an Accordion forum:
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3560

That is interesting stuff. They have all the answers, for instance

...should be 442 which was always the norm for US made & Italian imports to the US.
You might re-check it again and play the 1st C from the chin and with a dry tuned M reed selected.
The reasoning for the 442 tuning came from many years ago when there was no amplification and the accordion at 440 had no presence when played with other musical instruments. Tuning to 442 gave them presence and took the place of sound volume.

That explains a lot - even if standard tuning started at 432 in the past, someone always wanted to be heard above the rest and cranked up the pitch, others followed to drown him out again, and so the race goes on forever...

[DavidKOS]

If we're talking about reference pitches, we're necessarily talking about Fixed Do. I don't know when that happened (i.e. when it got 'fixed'), but I am surprised to read that it seems to have happened before Moveable Do as we think of it today, as a system of learning to sight-sing. I don't know what that means for, like, Guido of Arezzo. Presumably when he pointed to a knuckle and said 'ut' he meant the pitch of the 'ut' pipe in the organ in next room.

It is like moveable Do in sight-singing.

Fixed Do - like many countries in Europe where note names are Do, Re, Mi, etc. for C, D, E, and so on.

As for Guido of Arezzo and the "Guidonian hand" that was a singing tool, and it was moveable Do.

Which meant that Do could be any pitch, but the syllables used are the usual Ut (do in the early days) Re Mi Fa etc.

It could be the pitch on the pipe organ...or not.

[MontanaMatt]

The Earth is not flat, the earth is sharp...

Wrong, the earth is Natural!

[MontanaMatt]

I tuned my mando to 432 last night and I perceived it to be quieter. Is it possible that the reduction in tension of the detuning could make a volume difference?

[DavidKOS]

I tuned my mando to 432 last night and I perceived it to be quieter. Is it possible that the reduction in tension of the detuning could make a volume difference?

Indeed - there are people that think the change in audience size from the Baroque royal halls to the Classical period's even larger halls to the huge public halls influenced both pitch and instrument design to be heard better.

Pitch became higher as it carries more, strings are tighter, etc. Instruments were deliberately re-designed to be louder.

You are not alone in your assumption.

[foldedpath]

In my experience accordions can be a wee bit off, and tuning strictly to a guitar tuner to play along with them may not quite work.

Here is a discussion from an Accordion forum:
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3560

True, and it's fairly common for pub sessions to tune to a concertina "A" when one is present. It's every fretted instrument player's potential nightmare, especially with 8 strings to tune! I'm very fortunate that two of the sessions I join on a regular or occasional basis have concertina players with instruments that produce an actual 440 Hz note. Or at least close enough, that I can just use my clip-on tuner at the normal reference setting.

Another local session has players of smallpipes and reelpipes. Chanters are adjustable, so they may start out at A=440, but they can drift sharp over time. At least in that case, it doesn't matter so much. Pipes are so loud that everyone else is basically just along for the ride, and the swirling, phase-shifter sound from the tuning difference doesn't sound so bad.

[David L]

Also, an orchestra tunes to an "A" from the oboe, because (Wiki source) "According to the League of American Orchestras, this is done because the pitch is secure and its penetrating sound makes it ideal for tuning." I'm not sure what "secure" means in that context. It might just mean it's more stable than the C note near the bottom of the range for oboe. [/QUOTE]

In this case, "secure" means that the A doesn't vary. Oboes don't have a tuning slide, their pitch is pretty much unchanging.

[peterleyenaar]

And that is why we use the A ("Eh") note for tuning in an orchestra.[/B]

At least, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it!

They must be speaking Canadian

[sblock]

...
In this case, "secure" means that the A doesn't vary. Oboes don't have a tuning slide, their pitch is pretty much unchanging.

Unchanging pitch?! Well, yes and no! An oboe is a double reed woodwind with a conical bore, and there is considerable latitude in the player's embouchere to alter the pitch up or down by several Hz. Altitude and weather (humidity) also inevitably affect the note being played. All in all, an oboe is not even as reliable as an inexpensive metal pitchpipe, and certainly not as reliable as a tuning fork. Or a modern electronic tuner.

The oboe is typically used in an orchestra because (1) its weird tone is fairly easily heard above the general orchestral din and (2) it can play that A note, the note common to all the strings, and (3) it's not very adjustable itself, so it cannot be readily retuned to match the other instruments ("if the mountain won't come to Mohammed...").

Many modern orchestras have moved away from standardizing against an oboe, and to electronic tuners, or to keyboard notes (tuned earlier against an electronic standard). Or even individual tuners scattered throughout the orchestra pit.

[Louise NM]

Also, an orchestra tunes to an "A" from the oboe, because (Wiki source) "According to the League of American Orchestras, this is done because the pitch is secure and its penetrating sound makes it ideal for tuning." I'm not sure what "secure" means in that context. It might just mean it's more stable than the C note near the bottom of the range for oboe.

In this case, "secure" means that the A doesn't vary. Oboes don't have a tuning slide, their pitch is pretty much unchanging.

Ever tried to tune to an oboist who's having a bad day?

There is a classic story about Sir Thomas Beecham, an English conductor, listening to the oboe give the A. His comment: "Gentlemen, take your pick."

[jesserules]

An interesting story of how 'A' became 440 Hz and why many people believe it should be 432 Hz. The change really does change how music sounds.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4194106/4...spiracy-music/

Oh jiminy, not again ....

[SincereCorgi]

It is like moveable Do in sight-singing.

Fixed Do - like many countries in Europe where note names are Do, Re, Mi, etc. for C, D, E, and so on.

As for Guido of Arezzo and the "Guidonian hand" that was a singing tool, and it was moveable Do.

Regarding Guido, I don't think this is quite right. Moveable Do as we think of it is something that presupposes the existence of different keys and uses Moveable Do to allow singers to sing in a tonal framework in any of those keys by reassigning the tonic. Guido and musicians of that era weren't interested in reassigning the the tonic- the idea of modulation wasn't even a notion yet. They just trained singers using whatever he local reference pitch was, presumably a pipe organ.

This is admittedly geting way out into angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory.