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Thread: keys that don't sound good

  1. #26
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjones View Post
    I do know Jazz doesn't chase the harmonious. The dissonant tone has equal worth.
    9ths, 11ths, & 13ths would get an eyebrow raise in some jams, and a smile in others.
    Eyebrow raised?

    In some non-jazz sessions I've been at, if I played those "jazz"chords, somebody would throw a bottle or something at me to stop.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Eyebrow raised?

    In some non-jazz sessions I've been at, if I played those "jazz"chords, somebody would throw a bottle or something at me to stop.
    Sure they'd throw that bottle, but wouldn't they raise an eyebrow as they did so?

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  5. #28
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Sure they'd throw that bottle, but wouldn't they raise an eyebrow as they did so?
    Only to aim better.

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  7. #29
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    just tell em the 11th is really a sus4 .
    2012 Weber Bitterroot F5.

  8. #30
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    I suspect most of the jazzers hear most all keys regularly and their ears are used to the discrepancies. I'll step out on a limb and suggest that using a capo when playing in a key that many of us don't hear often, such as Gb, preserves the relative tunings and overtones of the intervals that we are used to and may sound more "normal" to the ear than playing the chords in a different form.

  9. #31
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    I know you're kidding, but for the uninitiated, the 11th is really not a sus4. In an 11th chord, there will be a third, thus, it isn't suspended, although the 11 is the same note as the 4. FWIW, an 11th chord will generally also have the b7 and the 9. #11 is a different animal - think Lydian feel.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

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  11. #32
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    Thanks all
    for expalnations!

    @Sblock: I don't even know how to tune it in perfect fiths
    Possible I make so but could you explain how to tune in perfect fiths please?
    I tune each string according to what says the tuner.
    Sometimes I have to adjust it a little by ear to tune the strings together on 5th fret octave.

    I swear I have good hear and my instruments are well tuned all along the neck.
    A small amount of out of tune drives me mad!
    I checked setup once again and no problem with this.
    When I say G# is out of tune I mean it sounds so when I play music.
    But the tuner tells me each independent note of the scale is ok.

    @David L :
    Yes! Dampening the strings is a solution for the "out of tuned effect".
    Resonating G on G# tone is the problem, as logical.
    I should have thought about it earlier, thanks

    But...
    I'm aware of equal temperament and the theory which says that all keys sounds the same.
    It would be true if I could manage to always dampen all the simpatetic ringing.
    But this way I don't have the rich resonance sound of the G scale sound.
    In G# I just feel I loose all the interesting sound of the fith tuning
    If you like simpathetic ringing and lot of harmonics as I do, the instrument really sounds better (for me) at some keys and more weak (or less interesting) at others.
    Imagine you have an wonderful reverb pedal that warms your sound and you suddenly turn it off.
    This is the best way I can explain what I feel.

    Then I think I'll use a capo...

    Anyway, thanks for making me learn interesting things!

    (And sorry if I take time to answer, it takes me time to read, understand and write in english.
    And I confess I spend much time playing too )
    My english is not perfect.
    Nor my french anyway...

  12. #33
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    At the weekly jam I go to we like to play in F and Bb. It keeps the banjos away.

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilGox View Post
    Thanks all
    for expalnations!

    @Sblock: I don't even know how to tune it in perfect fiths
    Possible I make so but could you explain how to tune in perfect fiths please?
    I tune each string according to what says the tuner.
    Sometimes I have to adjust it a little by ear to tune the strings together on 5th fret octave. (bold added)
    OK, the way that you tune might be contributing to your problem. If you tune the strings exactly to what the tuner says, then you will get 12TET (Twelve-tone Equal Temperament). Fini! However, you ALSO wrote that you tend to adjust your tuning further, so that the note on the 5th fret of the higher string is exactly one octave above the note on the open, lower string. However, that 5th fret (on an accurately made fretboard, with the bridge in the exact right place) is designed to give a frequency that is 1.49831 times the root, which is not exactly 3/2 of it (= 1.5 times)! The fretted string will therefore tend to sound just a trifle flat (~2 cents' worth), if your ear is good enough to hear that. If you consistently raise the note on the higher string to compensate for this apparent flatness, across the board, then you will have achieved Just Intonation tuning, and not Equal Temperament tuning. You can also get Just Intonation by comparing the harmonic produced at the 7th fret of a lower, open string with the octave below sounded by the open string found just above it -- or, with the exact match to the octave harmonic of that string found at the 12th fret. This procedure does not rely on using any frets at all, and is therefore "perfect" in getting you the Pythagorean frequency of a "just" fifth interval (3/2 = 1.5 times the root) as the tuning reference. Violinists sometimes use this harmonic for Just tuning, but they're also trained from the very start to hear a perfect fifth, and especially to listen for the sympathetic resonance (i.e., the reinforcement of higher harmonics) that occurs when two adjacent strings are sounded together that happen to be exactly a fifth apart. This process produces Just Tuning for the open strings, not 12TET. On a violin, the player can adjust the fingered notes to the right 12TET tones by ear, but the open violin strings will always produce a 'wide octave' due to their non-12TET tuning. You should not tune a mandolin like a violin.

    My advice would be to rely on your tuner, and not tweak it further, especially if you intend to play in a key with many sharps or flats, i.e., well "away" from the open-string notes of G,D,A,E.

    Bon courage, mon vieux!
    Last edited by sblock; Today at 7:20pm.

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    Default Re: keys that don't sound good


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