Need help with Jigs

[ddshellback993]

Hello,

I've been studying Mandolin seriously for about 4 months. My first love is Bluegrass but my instructor is trying to expand my horizons and improve my picking by starting me on jigs. Here's the problem I just don't get jigs. The rhythm (6/8) is just too foreign to my ears and the melodies so far have not inspired me to want to practice. Does anyone have any suggestions for tunes/artists I should listen to get a better understanding of the genre? Who knows I may learn to like jigs after all

FWIW I had the same issue when I was kid taking guitar lessons many years ago. My teacher was tying to get me to improve by playing classical guitar and I couldn't get used to the genre. Because of this I lost interest in my lessons and my playing stagnated. It wasn't until years later that I discovered Andres Segovia and John Williams that the lightbulb went off. Wish I had heard them at 15.

Thanks for the feed back
Bob

[James Rankine]

Honestly Bob if Jigs aren’t grabbing you don’t bother with them. They require a completely different approach and arguably years to perfect. I don’t think any of this time will benefit your bluegrass playing. Listening to bluegrass players dabbling in jigs is often not a great listening experience. I think there is enough in the world of bluegrass to keep you occupied. If you subsequently develop a love for Jigs then that is the time to put in the effort.

[Steve L]

Marla Fibish, Kevin McLeod, Dave Surrette, Luke Plumb, and some Youtube searches might expose you to some nice stuff.

That being said, 4 months isn't a long time to be playing and jigs are a big stylistic detour from what you actually want to do with the instrument. You might want to consider if you and your teacher are actually a good fit. If you don't like it, I'm not sure you should be paying someone to teach you to play it. For what it's worth, I say this as someone who plays Irish music almost exclusively

[foldedpath]

Another one here who plays almost exclusively Irish/Scottish trad on mandolin. As much as I love this music, I agree with posts above about jigs being a pretty drastic detour for someone mainly interested in playing Bluegrass. If you want to step outside Bluegrass for a taste of another genre, then learning a few Blues tunes would have a more direct relation to Bluegrass.

It sounds to me like your teacher has a rote program of moving students through different genres of music. That approach may be useful in the abstract for broadening horizons, but in this case, I think jigs are about as useful to a Bluegrass player as learning Scottish strathspeys.

On the other hand, you should learn "fiddle tunes" because that's a part of Bluegrass, but the ones played in Bluegrass are generally the 4/4 reels and hornpipes from the Irish/Scottish traditions.

If you still want to explore jigs and want some examples for inspiration, here are a some master-level performances. The musicians here are using the basic jig rhythm as a framework for more advanced dynamic expression, in and around the jig beat. Jigs aren't just about learning the basic rhythm, but what you can do with that rhythm once you have it down. Like this:

[ddshellback993]

Thanks for the replies,

I was assured by my teacher that this was a temporary diversion to improve my sight reading and right hand technique. We are trying to break 40 years of guitar muscle memory. While I've been able to apply quite bit of what I know about playing a guitar to mandolin it is an completely different instrument and needs to be approached . I too easily fall into using guitar techniques, runs etc.. on tunes I know and I occasionally will fret where the note would be on a guitar. We are hoping playing a completely unfamiliar style of music will help correct some of those issues and then get back to Bluegrass. I'll fire him if he doesn't

Thanks for the videos. It's giving me a good idea of the feel.

[ddshellback993]

Thanks for the names. This is exactly what I needed. Part of this exercise is to get me to stop thinking in guitar so we needed to find a genre that I never played before. As a guitar player, Irish music always struck me as meh so I never explored it. Now I want to listen as a mandolin player and learn whatever I can from it. I may not become a proficient Irish jig mandolinist but this genre might be my way into thinking mandolin first rather than guitar first.

BTW, I'm really digging Marla Fibish.

[sblock]

This may sound drastic, but I would echo the sentiment, expressed earlier, that you and your teacher (or the teacher's preferred curriculum) might not be such a good fit. My opinion is this: You should play the things that you like to play, and that you are interested in playing. Period. As your skills improve, and as your tastes almost inevitably broaden alongside that, you may choose to branch out into other musical genres, forms and tempos that strike your fancy -- waltzes, jigs, polkas, marches, blues, choro, gypsy jazz, klezmer, classical, you-name-it! But if you happen to be into bluegrass now, then by all means, stay into it, and let it propel your musical journey forward.

You can improve your right hand technique by playing bluegrass, and you can improve your sight reading skills with fiddle tunes (particularly those found in the bluegrass repertoire). You don't require jigs for any of that.

Of course, to be considered an "all around" player -- if that's what you really seek to be -- you will ultimately need to embrace many different musical genres, forms, and tempos. But it's too early in your mandolin journey, in my opinion, to go after that. And you may never choose to do it, anyway.

I am not sure that I buy into the notion that forcing yourself to play some unfamiliar style of music is a good way to correct the problem of fretting the note as if it were found on a guitar. Maybe. But maybe not. I CAN confirm that many, many people make the transition from guitar to mandolin, and they also encounter this problem at first. So you're definitely not alone. I can also confirm that this problem tends to go away on its own after you've played the mandolin a whole lot, and truly familiarized yourself with it -- including developing muscle memory, ear training, and all that. Furthermore, this will happen even if you only play bluegrass (say, by ear) and fiddle tunes (by ear, or by learning these through sight-reading).

By the way: if you choose to concentrate mostly on bluegrass, at least for now, then sight reading is not an essential skill. This is heresy to some on the MC, I know! Bluegrass is best learned by ear, IMO.

[Simon DS]

I think it's important to at least know how to play, (DUD,DUD) slowly and solid. Metronome. One way to improve is to practice tremolo which you're have to learn anyway. It helps to get your pick to come back up on the upbeat fast enough. In any case if you have played a lot of guitar you'll maybe already know (DxD,DxD) as blues, unless you played (DxU,DxU), which is what I did and had a job to get sorted out.
It's a matter of just putting the upbeat in place of the 'x' and a little accent. Well, actually it's not so easy but well worth working on.
Good luck.

[sblock]

Another heresy of mine: It is definitely not necessary to play Irish jigs on the mandolin using DUD-DUD stroke patterns. It is entirely possible to play these jigs (and slip jigs, as well) with alternating DUD-UDU picking. And those who argue that you can't quite get the accents right that way are badly mistaken. I guess I therefore disagree (somewhat) with atsunrise about how important it is to know how to deploy the DUD-DUD pattern.

By the way, fiddlers don't usually bow Irish jigs with DUD-DUD bow patterns: many (most?) fiddlers tend to use alternate up and down strokes, in a repeating pattern of DUD-UDU bowstrokes. And these fiddlers seem to have no trouble getting the accents right with that alternating bowing pattern!! They also sometimes use a DDU-DDU pattern (modeled after the older French Gigue form). DUD-DUD, by contrast, is comparatively uncommon in fiddling.

[ddshellback993]

This heresy is apparently widespread. When i worked on the first of the two jigs my teacher gave me I was trying to use DUD DUD and quickly told the "correct" way for the mandolin was DUD UDU. It took about 20 min of work but I was able to get the accent working on the up. Thankfully it was a relatively easy tune to learn.

It's funny that you mention the various schools of thought on the picking strokes because that's how we got to the jigs in the first place. We had just finished working on Jerusalem Ridge and my teacher pointed out that I sometimes struggled as we increased the tempo on some of the measures because I wasn't keeping strict DUDUDUDU. I managed but it was definitely unorthodox and prone to losing the tempo as I tried to catch up. So for example if there is a rest I stop moving my wrist and resume on a downstroke. I've gotten away with that on slower tunes but as the tempo and difficulty increase that habit gets in my way.

FWIW my teacher is also a violin/fiddle player which may explain the DUD UDU.

[JeffD]

By the way, fiddlers don't usually bow Irish jigs with DUD-DUD bow patterns: many (most?) fiddlers tend to use alternate up and down strokes, in a repeating pattern of DUD-UDU bowstrokes. .

First of all, in absolute terms, it doesn't matter what most fiddlers do, as much as it matters what good fiddlers do.

My experience from listening to fiddlers and taking fiddle lessons, is that the gold standard is flexibility. Being able to play a jig DUD DUD, or DUU DUU (which seems more common) or DUD UDU, as needed or as necessary or as best fits the tune. DUU DUU puts a some emphasis on the third and sixth beat because you have to get the bow further in the same time, making a nice lilting pattern. But the point is flexibility.

For me it depends on where the jig lies, specifically what string crossing I may need to be ready for. I alternate from DUD UDU to anything else, depending on what I can do reliably in that tune without messing up the flow.

[foldedpath]

Another heresy of mine: It is definitely not necessary to play Irish jigs on the mandolin using DUD-DUD stroke patterns. It is entirely possible to play these jigs (and slip jigs, as well) with alternating DUD-UDU picking. And those who argue that you can't quite get the accents right that way are badly mistaken. I guess I therefore disagree (somewhat) with atsunrise about how important it is to know how to deploy the DUD-DUD pattern.

Oh, it's not that heretical, I'm an alternating picker for the most part on jigs. But I know what you mean about this emphasis in instruction.

The way I see it, DUD DUD is useful for someone brand new to flatpicking a jig rhythm, because it burns the rhythm feel into the brain and fingers. Once you have that rhythm firmly embedded in your head, I think many players naturally shift into alternate picking, or whatever works for the tune. The DUD DUD or DDU DDU patterns are just to get the initial feel. It's a shortcut for "Go listen to a few hundred recordings of great musicians playing jigs until you hear them in your sleep, and then come back and try a few."


One big reason to get away from a strict DUD DUD or DDU DDU pattern is when you start playing ornaments like trebles (quick triplets), hammer-ons, and pull-offs around the main melody notes. Ornaments will often break a rigid picking pattern. You might also want to use a down-stroke to begin each important phrase in a tune, another pattern breaker.

FWIW, most of my picking on jigs is alternate picking with reversed directions here and there when needed. However, I would still advise someone completely new to Irish music to start with DUD DUD or DDU DDU pattern, to get a feel for the rhythm. Then see if you can maintain that feel with alternate picking, and with string-crossing, and so on. The rhythm pulse is what matters, not the pattern, but the pattern might help you get there initially.

[Bob Visentin]

Here is a trick I used to learn to feel and play in 5/4 and 7/4. When I am out walking I would count time in my head to my steps. I bet this might work for jigs too. When you walk just count each step 1 to 6 and over and over with the accents on 1 and 4.

[kmmando]

This may appear, and might be of help?


https://vimeo.com/56419815

https://vimeo.com/56419815

[Randi Gormley]

If you do plan on keeping with the jig experiment, you can use a mnemonic device to help you suss out the pattern. Jigs are "carrots and cabbages" -- if you play your notes to that rhythm, you've got the makings of a jig. Reels are "black and decker," with the accent on the one and four ... it's what we tell kids when we talk to them about playing Irish music. iirc, there are other mnemonics for hornpipes and maybe slides? anyway, the point of much ITM is to bounce just like dance steps. the bounce is at least as important as the individual notes. So maybe add some bounce to your experiments? might make the tunes more fun for you.

[foldedpath]

While we're on the subject I wanted to add this clip which I've posted here before, but it's the best explanation I've ever seen of *why* these dance rhythms work the way they do, at the tempos you usually hear or play them:

[Mark Gunter]

All the responses about why you shouldn't worry about trying to play jigs that "don't grab you", when bluegrass is your real interest, are spot on, I think. Also, in my imagination, anyone who can have and maintain a focus on only one genre is at an advantage. It automatically sets a course for you. Unfortunately, I've never been that way myself, so maybe my seeing that as an advantage in those who do that is just a case of the proverbial grass looking greener over yonder.

To get round to your specific question, The rhythm (6/8) is just too foreign to my ears and the melodies so far have not inspired me to want to practice. Does anyone have any suggestions for tunes/artists I should listen to get a better understanding of the genre?

I'd say that maybe you've heard the tune, The Irish Washerwoman. I suppose it would depend on your age and such. Anyway, I was familiar with that tune, though I knew nothing really about jigs, and I like that tune so I learned it. Like you, I wasn't really drawn to most jigs I encountered, and I learned some I really didn't care for much because they were called as Newbies Tune of the Month in the Newbies Social Group here. As others have noted, it's better to learn tunes you like. So if there is any tune embedded in your childhood conciousness, like Irish Washerwoman, that may be a good starting point.



And this is me, from 2-1/2 years ago, I was a few months into learning as you are, and I learned this tune and played it slowly on a cheap little mandolin I started on:



If that tune does sound familiar to you, give it a try. There's a great lesson for beginners here: http://www.mandolessons.com/lessons/...sh-washerwoman

[Jill McAuley]

Here's some jigs I'm fond of for ye:

Gallagher's Frolics



Champaign Jig Goes to Columbia/Pat & Al's



Peter Byrne's Fancy/Creeping Docken

[Gelsenbury]

If your teacher's stated aim is to break habits embedded by many years of guitar, a jig rhythm with DUD DUD picking may be a good way to do it. Whether the tune ultimately enters your repertoire doesn't matter in that case. It's just about doing something different.

I agree with the notion that learning a tune you like is easier and more fun. Funnily enough, I have a similar situation with reels. The 4/4 rhythm isn't the problem, of course, but getting the tune up to speed takes many hours of practice, which I don't have ... and most reels just don't sound interesting enough to me to motivate me to persist. 6/8 seems quite natural to me - I grew up with waltzes, and it's a manageable step from 3/4 to 6/8.

Anyway, which jigs might you like? Nobody here can know, so you have to do your own research. If you do a search for "jig" on YouTube, you can find tons of examples and have a good listen. The Kesh jig is very well known, Rakes of Kildare is fairly easy because it doesn't have too many notes, Coleraine is a great tune too... Often, but not always, jigs in minor keys are played a little slower, which may help. If you learn from notation or ABC, www.thesession.org is the place to find Irish music. For tab, www.traditionalmusic.co.uk is worth bookmarking.

There are lots of ways to internalise the jig rhythm even when you don't have an instrument nearby. Mnemonics were mentioned here before. I'm familiar with "apples and oranges" for a standard 6/8 jig and "apples and oranges gobbled up" for a 9/8 slip jig. Counting ONE, two, three for each step while walking is a good start, but you'll want to move on to differentiating between the left and right foot and count ONE, two, three, TWO, two three. Or you may prefer ONE, two, three, FOUR, five, six. The emphasis on the 4 in a jig is slightly weaker than the emphasis on the 1.

Then, to embed the DUD DUD pattern, I used to take a pick - or a coin if no pick was available - and just move my hand DUD DUD, to get the wrist used to it. "Strumming" against my other hand was useful for some touch feedback and for simulating the resistance of the strings. After doing this for some time while reading a paper at work, transferring it to the mandolin was easy.

I'd recommend trying it, even if it's the only 6/8 you'll ever play. It will make you a better player.

[Gelsenbury]

When i worked on the first of the two jigs my teacher gave me I was trying to use DUD DUD and quickly told the "correct" way for the mandolin was DUD UDU.

By the way, this is just simply wrong. Every player I know uses DUD DUD at least as the basis, and everyone from whom I've learnt (from books, from videos, or in person) recommends DUD DUD.

That's not to say that other patterns are wrong. But DUD UDU is not the generally accepted correct way on the mandolin.

[sblock]

By the way, this is just simply wrong. Every player I know uses DUD DUD at least as the basis, and everyone from whom I've learnt (from books, from videos, or in person) recommends DUD DUD.

That's not to say that other patterns are wrong. But DUD UDU is not the generally accepted correct way on the mandolin.

YOW. Not the "generally accepted correct way"?!? Hold on just a minute there: them's fighting words, my friend!

If I'm not mistaken, DUD-DUD DUD-DUD picking is much more prevalent in parts of Ireland and the British Isles than it is on this side of the Atlantic. The jig-pickers I know here in the U.S. and Canada tend to use DUD-UDU DUD-UDU fairly often, which alternates. They do so particularly on tunes with faster tempos. And this includes some very impressive musicians -- folks like Chris Thile and Tim O'Brien (see here), by the way!

It's dangerous to make bold pronouncements to the effect that the "generally accepted correct (sic)" way is the method that you happen to play and prefer! A "generally accepted" way might indeed exist, in the sense that a majority of players worldwide happens to do it one particular way -- but then again, you probably don't even have the data to draw that narrow conclusion, having only sampled playing in your area. So be careful before jumping in with both feet. As for your declaring this to be the one-and-only "correct" way (!): there is no such thing as the 'picking police,' my friend, and you don't get to enforce these rules!

Anything that produces great music may be considered to be "correct," and there are many styles, variations, and techniques when it comes to mandolin picking. What matters most is how the music sounds, not how you got it to sound that way. Some of the best pickers out there can use a multiplicity of picking directions to get what they want, changing these up on the fly as it suits them and the music. The same thing holds for bowstrokes on the fiddle, as DavidKOS pointed out.

So please, don't declare the alternate picking pattern as "not generally accepted correct." Hey, we call it "folk music" for a reason!

[Mark Gunter]

Ouch. sblock has made some salient points, about 'correctness' - that would depend on the 'school authority', I suppose, that you acquiesce to.

There's more than one way to pick a cat's gut, as it were. Many method teachers strictly adhere to DUD DUD as a technique to learn for picking jigs, but I doubt many (or any) actually intend it as an ironclad rule. Technique is to mastered; then, as master, you use where and when you will. IMO it is generally a good thing to master as many techniques as you are willing to, if you can use them.

On the off chance it may be helpful to someone, here's something I do sometimes by way of practice or warm up, it's a Chris Henry set of scale exercises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy3ZRxxicF8

If you follow that type of thing, part of the exercise calls for playing scales in triplets (at about 0:53). What I like to do when playing scales in triplets is to practice the triplets both ways. DUD UDU as I've done on guitar all my life, followed by DUD DUD as I've learned to use on jigs on mandolin over the past couple years.

I've never regretted learning or studying various approaches in technique.

Edit to say that when I first read the post by ddshellback993:

When i worked on the first of the two jigs my teacher gave me I was trying to use DUD DUD and quickly told the "correct" way for the mandolin was DUD UDU.

I felt as strong a reaction toward what that teacher had said, as sblock had toward what Gelsenbury wrote. 'quickly told the "correct" way for the mandolin was DUD UDU' ??? BS

[bigskygirl]

I think you should listen to sblock...and watch this video...have fun!

[foldedpath]

I mentioned it earlier but I think it's worth repeating. All these patterns go out the window when you start using ornaments. Hammer-ons, pull-offs, and the distinctive "treble" ornament that we probably stole from the tenor banjo players.

That Irish Washerwoman clip above may show how you can get a jig feel with alternate picking, but it's really not a great example of getting "the Irish" in your music. It's completely un-ornamented, just the bare bones of the tune. You do have to get the basic tune down first, but the next step when you get a jig up to speed is to start thinking about ornaments. This will automatically force your picking to be a lot more flexible on jigs, reels, hornpipes, and anything else in this particular style of music.

Edited to add, like this video clip:

https://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/co...ern_ballyduff/

[James Rankine]

The jig-pickers I know here in the U.S. and Canada tend to use DUD-UDU DUD-UDU fairly often, which alternates. They do so particularly on tunes with faster tempos. And this includes some very impressive musicians -- folks like Chris Thile and Tim O'Brien (see here), by the way!

sblock, your link was to Tim O'Brien playing a set of reels. Tim plays Jigs DUD DUD