Loar copy on Craigslist

[PJ Doland]

I wonder if this is a "I'll put 'the Gibson' inlay and signed label on this custom build, but you have to PROMISE me you'll never tell anyone I did this."

[rcc56]

I wonder if this is a "I'll put 'the Gibson' inlay and signed label on this custom build, but you have to PROMISE me you'll never tell anyone I did this."

This was not an uncommon practice in the late 70's/early 80's. Gibson was owned by Norlin at the time. The copies were better than contemporary Gibson instruments. Some makers signed the tops on the inside of their instruments, but many were made with Gibson logo and MM label and no clue to the actual maker. No one questioned their actions during that period-- everybody knew that they were neither pre-war nor modern Gibsons-- they were obviously not old instruments, and they looked quite different from what was coming out of the Gibson factory at the time. They were viewed as reproductions rather than forgeries by both the buyers and the makers. Many of the original buyers asked for the Gibson logo. There was at least one independent banjo maker doing the same thing at the time.

I can think of at least a half dozen luthiers who might have built a mandolin such as this in the 70's/80's. They were building to reproduce, not to deceive. I don't necessarily accept the seller's story as accurate, though.

[J.Albert]

Look at the very clean lines of the peghead scroll and body scroll, it looks like it could have come from the Gibson factory in the late 1980's.

Of course, this wasn't a production model, but again, it -could have been- an "employee-built" instrument as per the seller's claim.

The labels could have been added or changed out later.
Same for the Gotoh tuners (as Mike mentioned above).

This looks to be a very well-made instrument, with careful attention to details.

Makes one wonder how it sounds?

Surely there must be someone from the Cafe out there who could go take a look at it?

[Dacraw54]

The Gotoh tuners are replacements, the original tuners are also Gotoh and about 40 yers old. Seller says it was built by the same guy that built Marty Stuart’s - if true, that would be Chris Warner. It has good workmanship and a pleasant sound. The strings on it are lighter than J74, the guy who had it for years began to have finger problems so switched to lighter strings and used the Carpenter jack for volume. No issues with it that I could see. The seller is a guitar guy who doesn’t play Mando but is knowledgeable of the Bluegrass scene and had a couple of phone clips of a recent visit to Gruhn’s and carters Loars - in a glass case. Looks like a lacquer finish, but might be varnish - def not nitro. I A/B’d it with a Sam Bush which was louder and richer, but that could have been the difference in the strings. The action of the SB was also set higher.
I’m mulling it over.
Does anyone know any “tells” that a Chris Warner Mando might have?

[Jeff Mando]

Chris Warner is a Cafe member, but looks like his last post was in 2010 regarding Marty Stuart's mandolin, which he confirms he did build for Roland White, who didn't need it at the time, but Stuart was his roommate and Stuart bought it. I believe the price was $650 in 1973. Might be a long shot to PM Warner, but worth a try.

There is about 4 pages on Marty's mandolin with pictures on MC, easy to find if you do a google search.

[jim simpson]

The Gotoh tuners are replacements, the original tuners are also Gotoh and about 40 yers old. Seller says it was built by the same guy that built Marty Stuart’s - if true, that would be Chris Warner. It has good workmanship and a pleasant sound. The strings on it are lighter than J74, the guy who had it for years began to have finger problems so switched to lighter strings and used the Carpenter jack for volume. No issues with it that I could see. The seller is a guitar guy who doesn’t play Mando but is knowledgeable of the Bluegrass scene and had a couple of phone clips of a recent visit to Gruhn’s and carters Loars - in a glass case. Looks like a lacquer finish, but might be varnish - def not nitro. I A/B’d it with a Sam Bush which was louder and richer, but that could have been the difference in the strings. The action of the SB was also set higher.
I’m mulling it over.
Does anyone know any “tells” that a Chris Warner Mando might have?

I owned a Chris Warner copy made in the 70's, Chris put a label inside stating that he made it and the date. Here's a photo of it. The model on CL looks too new for it to be a Chris Warner.

[Jeff Mando]

Hi Jim, nice mandolin! Just curious, did you have the frets removed on the Florida or is that something Warner did all the time?

[jim simpson]

Jeff, I did the scallop after replacing the fingerboard. I had to plane the neck for some correction. I rebound the new fingerboard thus the lighter color of the new binding. I don't think the original fingerboard was scalloped.

[Dacraw54]

Jim, if you look at the pics in Post #10, the middle pic is closest to how the mandolin looks in reality. While it's very clean and obviously well-cared for - no signatures gouged in the wood etc. - it does look at least 30 years old. The original tuners certainly look their age. The biggest difference I see between your's and this one is the scroll. The seller is obviously relating what the previous, and original owner, (now deceased) had told him.
BTW, not visible in the pic of the label is the word COPY written in pen on the top left area of the label with the serial number. The seller said that back when it was made it was Gibson's policy to let luthiers (employees?) have these labels provided the word copy was put on them - can anyone verify that?

[Northwest Steve]

Here is a Cliff Sargent copy -

https://reverb.com/item/12007704-cli...oar-tribute-f5

and
https://reverb.com/item/11012391-mar...-mandolin-1991

[Timbofood]

Parts “grew legs” for many years around here so, the neck could have walked home with someone, easily enough.
I still say it might not be a bad deal for someone who had a real itch.
As for the “tribute” pieces posted above? They are not my cup of tea but, I’m not buying anything!
But, aren’t ANY F-5 style mandolins, sort of a tribute? Unless they are real signed Loars they are all trying to emulate the originals.

[Dacraw54]

My understanding is that by the 70's Gibson had strayed away from the Loar specs and these tributes were attempts by Luthiers to create replicas of the Loar according to his specs - graduations, varnish etc. Some of them are considered as "Master Models" before the MM and DMM era. They were certainly all considered superior to the production F5's, at least up to the late 80's.

[markd]

Did anyone on the Cafe get this Loar copy ?

Mark

[Northwest Steve]

Yep - now for sale in the classifieds by the new owner

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/124969#124969

[mrmando]

Well, it WAS there ... now it isn't coming up.

[Jeff Mando]

Who did they attribute it to?

[DataNick]

I know the owner who prefers to remain off the grid...no definitive answer on who made it...still a mystery

[Mandolin Cafe]

That ad was removed immediately as soon as it was noticed and the seller informed why.

The Mandolin Cafe will not host Gibson copies where the Gibson logo is used on the heastock. There's a single word for that: counterfeit. Can apply to any company, any brand. Imagine the uproar if someone was selling the fake D'Addario Strings on the classifieds that amazon has offered for years that are made--very poorly so--in China.

Gibson legal has contacted us in the past and asked these be removed. We support their right to do so.

Don't care if someone wants to build one, play or own one. That's their business, not ours. Our business is that the sale of counterfeit instruments can be hosted elsewhere.

[Timbofood]

Scott’s Post is, once again, one of the reasons I enjoy this site. There is a very simple “rule of propriety” which all the moderators must spend a LOT of time monitoring.
I appreciate all the effort the team does to keep this site safe, smart and honest!
Thanks guys!

[J.Albert]

Mandolin Cafe wrote (in 43 above):
"The Mandolin Cafe will not host Gibson copies where the Gibson logo is used on the heastock. There's a single word for that: counterfeit."

Fair enough. It's your site.

But...
If the instrument in question was truly "an employee-built" instrument, with construction initiated by an employee of "Gibson", with all its construction operations performed within the Gibson shop, is it still a "counterfeit."...?

In times past (not sure if it's still their company policy), the C.F. Martin company permitted employees to build a personal guitar. These were built entirely within the factory, by the same employees working on other Martins, probably mixed right in with "regular production". Some of them come up for sale from time to time. Would such a guitar also be considered "counterfeit"?

If the owner's story is true, I'd consider the mandolin in question to be a "custom" instrument, built for a factory employee. Not a "production model" with a production-line serial number, no, of course not.
But as much "a Gibson" as anything else coming off their production line.

DataNick mentions the original owner prefers to remain "off the grid".
Very well.
But unless he's willing to "go public", the story behind this instrument will have to remain... well... "covered up"...