What on Earth is this thing?

[tonydxn]

Coming up for auction in UK. Described by the auctioneer as a 'Royal Mark mandolin'. Anyone know anything about them?

It looks as if it has some sort of internal soundboard that the bridge sits on.

I think I might have to buy it.

[Bertram Henze]

That seems to be the worst case of a caved-in top I ever saw.

[MikeEdgerton]

I believe it's a mandriola. The fretboard extension does look Italian. That's an interesting design to say the least.

[billhay4]

You definitely need that instrument, but I have no idea what it is. Very interesting, though.
Bill

[MikeZito]

Does the auctioneer give a projected price?

[tonydxn]

Yes, Mike - £30-50 - not that you can take any notice of that. (Includes the cornet. Always wanted one of those . . .)

Strange. Just came across another one, from a seller in Holland. You wait 20 years, then two come along at once.

Position markers and tailpiece look German to me. It has a Dutch label inside which looks more like a music shop than a maker.

[MikeZito]

I am certainly no expert, but I would think that if the instrument is playable, then £30-50 should be a good deal.

Keep us updated.

[lenf12]

One is a 12 string and the other is an 8 string. Interesting pieces indeed.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[allenhopkins]

I gather there's an actual soundboard on which the bridge sits, and the "top" is ornamental rather than functional (other than as a finger-rest if you put your finger(s) on the top while playing)?

Why someone would go to that amount of trouble to put a facade over the actual vibrating surface...I dunno.

[Denny Gies]

That builder was smokin' something...............

[Explorer]

This one looks better than the previous such instrument....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...llian-mandolin

[tonydxn]

Yes, it's definitely one of those - many thanks. I will certainly not be buying it if the bidding goes that high!

[Jim Garber]

It was made by C. Garozzo of Catania, Sicily. A similar mandriola is pictured here.



Here are a few more from my files (for your entertainment):



You would think that they had deep bodies to accommodate the double top but this one (and probably others) looks rather thin, at least no thicker than a standard mandolin.



'Royal Mark mandolin' refers to the stamp on the headstock or on the body of the instrument and might be some recognition of the maker by the government.

[Bertram Henze]

Yes, Mike - £30-50 - not that you can take any notice of that. (Includes the cornet. Always wanted one of those . . .)

Strange. Just came across another one, from a seller in Holland. You wait 20 years, then two come along at once.

Position markers and tailpiece look German to me. It has a Dutch label inside which looks more like a music shop than a maker.

Can you order any shape of the cutout you want?

[tonydxn]

Thanks Jim Garber. I love that one with the scrolls - would a give a Gumby a run for its money I can't help wondering why an Italian maker should come up with something so radically different from anything produced in Italy. Maybe his wife put the wrong kind of mushroom in his soup.

Following Explorer's useful pointer, I did find photos of a few of these online. They all had 12 strings. They sometimes fetch surprisingly high prices. The Dutch example looks to me like a German maker's take on the idea.

If I finish up getting either of these, I'll report back. In the meantime, I will just add that I recently repaired a mandolin by B. Garozzo (possibly C. Garozzo's son). It also had 12 strings, was very shallow in the body and had the name branded on the soundboard. Here is a photo of it

There is a sound sample of this mandriola here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkLCZV87Vhw

[dhergert]

... Why someone would go to that amount of trouble to put a facade over the actual vibrating surface...I dunno.

The top is the pickguard or arm rest or tone guard, or whatever...

Here's another instrument with the same concept...

[Bertram Henze]

The top is the pickguard or arm rest or tone guard, or whatever...

Here's another instrument with the same concept...

This is an interesting comparison, even though separation from dampening disturbances covers only half of the resonator concept (the rest being a loudspeaker without a magnet).

[allenhopkins]

Love the double f-holes...

Not really "the same concept," though. The resonator instrument's body -- guitar-shaped more out of tradition than particular acoustic functionality -- is really only a framework to hold the resonator, which is the principal, nearly only, vibrating surface. There is a coverplate over the resonator, principally to protect the fairly fragile aluminum diaphragm of the resonator cone.

In the case of a "spider" bridge instrument like this Dobro, there's also a cast-metal framework that supports the bridge and connects to the resonator cone by a central screw, as well as through the ends of the "spider's legs." Thus the strings' vibrations are transmitted to the resonator cone, which produces the instrument's sound.

The "Royal Mark" and other instruments with the double tops, get -- as far as I can see -- no acoustic benefit from the outer "top." which extends over most of the inner "top" on which the bridge rests, the primary vibrating surface. Standard mandolins, with single tops, have the primary vibrating surface uncovered; it doesn't need to be protected, as a resonator does. I'd speculate that the effect of having an outer, non-vibrating "top," would be to actually reduce the acoustic output of the mandolin, not enhance it -- though I'd need to actually play one, or be present when one is played, to examine this hypothesis.

IMHO, there's a reason that double-top instruments are rare -- and resonator instruments relatively common; one design makes acoustic sense, and the other doesn't. Of course, I may be wrong; wouldn't be the first time...

[Ray(T)]

I spotted that earlier today and also wondered what it was. I might have a wander over and have a look at it; they're only about ten miles down the road from me. It and the cornet are valued at £30-£50 but I wouldn't take that too literally. This self same auction house had a cello valued at £80-£100 a couple of years ago - it was shot; I was sitting next to it - and it sold for £5000.

[Jim Garber]

I think it is very common for auctions to lowball the estimate. That way they get bidders excited that they might get a real bargain and if it sells for way more can show to potential consigners how the auction house can get them a much higher outcome.

[Ray(T)]

It usually depends on whether you're buying or selling, Jim

[tonydxn]

I think it is very common for auctions to lowball the estimate. That way they get bidders excited that they might get a real bargain and if it sells for way more can show to potential consigners how the auction house can get them a much higher outcome.

I sold a Lombardic mandolin at auction last year. The auctioneer told me £500-800. They put £400-600 in the catalogue. It sold for £460.

[Ray(T)]

Items at auction inevitably sell at or close to the reserve price. If there is only one bidder in the room, on line etc. the auctioneer will generate "fake" bids until the reserve price is reached. Reserve prices are always at or slightly below the lower estimate figure; never above. Only when there are multiple bidders are high prices achieved.

[zedmando]

You definitely need that instrument, but I have no idea what it is. Very interesting, though.
Bill

Agreed...
Just because it's different

[tonydxn]

Well, I finished up buying both of these.

I got the German one a few days ago. I was expecting to find something weird inside - soundholes in funny places, odd strutting or that the soundboard didn't go right up to the sides. Wrong. Apart from the obvious differences, I found exactly what I would expect to find inside any German mandolin. Back and front are plywood, soundboard 2-piece bookmatched spruce, sides look as if they may be Indian rosewood. It used to have a maker's name on a decal on the head, but it has flaked off or been deliberately removed.

It didn't need much work. I gave it a good clean, new frets, new strings and that's it. It is pretty loud and has a LOT of sustain. I expect that comes from the fact that the very tall bridge gives a high break angle of about 18 degrees over the bridge. Most German mandolins are really flat, almost like a banjo.

I will post a sound sample when I've learnt to play a tune (takes me a while, that . . .)

I will report on the Garozzo mandolin when I've got it up and running.