Issue With Re-Learning Right Hand

[banjoboy]

Ok, so I've been working on not brushing my finger along my pick-guard. I'm trying to learn how to play with a free-floating right hand. Only contact with my mando is my forearm on the forearm rest. I'm trying to keep my pick movements small, but when I speed up, I must be making larger movements cause when I play my A and E strings I seem to be brushing my G string somehow. It's almost like it's some sort of harmonic issue. I watch my hand when I'm playing and I'm at a loss to see my thumb hitting the G string but it must be happening. Anybody else ever have this issue?

[Ivan Kelsall]

From banjoboy - " I'm trying to learn how to play with a free-floating right hand.". Why do you think that you need to do that ?. I'd guess that the majority of folk on here rest their wrist very lightly on the bridge in order to keep their hand in one optimum position - just like we do on banjo by resting our pinky on the skin close to the bridge - some pickers plant their pinky & 3rd fingers as well. The additional pressure from lightly resting your wrist on a bridge already under a lot of pressure,wouldn't be noticed.

So,unless you have another specific reason to want to play with a free floating right hand, IMHO,you're making it difficult for yourself,
Ivan

[Beanzy]

You’re possibly moving the hand in a scooping action when you get faster. When you speed up things will tend to revert to however they were before. Practice sweeping fully across all four courses while keeping the knuckles and thumb level & rather than making it all wrist action make it a loose wrist controlled by a relaxed forearm.

If you look along the back of your hand while you pick with all the knuckles level do you see the pinky knuckle popping in and out of vision? That would show how much your thumb is being angled into the strings on the other side. See if you can do that fast without the knuckle of the little finger showing at the low part of the stroke.

One thought on position is that it helps to keep the left hand side of the mandolin well out from that side, so the right hand is reaching around less, giving you more relaxed muscles to play with.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with Ivan. Too many good mandolin players use pinkie brushing pick guard or mandolin top or lightly rest hand on bridge. Totally touch free is more difficult and in my opinion unnecessary. This contact becomes a problem if you " plant" your pinkie so hard that it restricts movement, other than that brush away.

[UsuallyPickin]

Re-learning is the most difficult thing a brain can do. Be patient. R/

[pops1]

I consider not planting the pinky but instead brushing the guard pretty near free floating. True you are touching something, but you are not anchoring so you are still not encumbering movement. While I can play by making more of a fist instead of letting my fingers stay open, I seldom do. I like the brushing to keep my depth controlled. If I were playing without a guard I may consider working more on the closed fist playing so as not to damage the top, but as long as I have a guard it's brushing for me.

That really doesn't address your question, but if you are playing with a closed fist are you rotating your wrist as you strum. Seems to me that would allow the thumb to brush the G string.

[Mark Miller]

I am in the middle of redoing my right hand as well. It takes a lot of time. It has helped me immensely to forget about speed for a while. What's needed now is rebuilding muscle memory and that takes time. If you speed up to the point that you're not doing what you intend to do, you're reinforcing bad muscle memory and slowing down the learning process.

I also agree with Ivan etc. that lightly resting the base of the palm on the bridge orients you to the strings without anchoring you. Play the E strings open slowly doing this. Then play the A strings open, then move to the D, etc. In order to keep the right hand at a comfortable angle, you will need to slide along the bridge as you switch strings. That's why it isn't anchoring. I start every day with a slow warmup first playing each course open, then doing string-crossing exercises with open strings, so I can focus in on R hand position, on only hitting the strings I want, and on an economical, small pick movement. It sounds like we're in a similar place, I hope my experience helps.

[banjoboy]

From banjoboy - " I'm trying to learn how to play with a free-floating right hand.". Why do you think that you need to do that ?. I'd guess that the majority of folk on here rest their wrist very lightly on the bridge in order to keep their hand in one optimum position - just like we do on banjo by resting our pinky on the skin close to the bridge - some pickers plant their pinky & 3rd fingers as well. The additional pressure from lightly resting your wrist on a bridge already under a lot of pressure,wouldn't be noticed.

So,unless you have another specific reason to want to play with a free floating right hand, IMHO,you're making it difficult for yourself,
Ivan

I'm kinda feeling like I have the ability to play louder and perform double-stop/tremolo better with a free floating hand. When I rest my wrist on the bridge, I pick more with a scooping motion. Brushing my fingers/fingertips across the pick-guard made me feel more accurate. I'm gonna give it more time before I decide whether or not to keep trying.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If, as your name implies,you're also a banjo player like me,then you'll have pretty strong right (left ?) hand fingers. I get the majority of my picking power directly from my right hand fingers,with the minimum input from my wrist. Although i do move my wrist as well,if i need more power (volume),i simply dig in harder using finger power,& my wrist stays anchored & stable,
Ivan

[Eric Platt]

It takes time to change something like hand position. Been working on something similar for the past couple of weeks. After years of playing guitar, then mandolin and then octave with the fingers of the right hand brushing the top, realized I have to stop it. Having problems with the octave. Am also realizing more power when the right hand is loosely curled up.

So be patient, the changes you want to happen will occur. Am hoping to get to the point where I don't have to keep reminding myself to change my hand position.

[Jess L.]

If, as your name implies,you're also a banjo player like me,then you'll have pretty strong right (left ?) hand fingers. ...

That's assuming OP plays bluegrass or other finger-style banjo. There are other styles of banjo playing that don't use individual finger picking at all, such as clawhammer and frailing on 5-string banjo, Dixieland on 4-string tenor banjo, Irish trad melody flatpicking on 4-string tenor banjo, etc.

[DavidKOS]

The pickguard is there to be used as a spacing device. Very lightly letting the edge of your hand lightly touch the pickguard is OK.

I am not talking "planting" - just the bare touch to let your hand know the plane of the strings.

A well set up pickguard on archtop instruments is designed for this, same as on the big brother f hole guitar.

Of course, on my European style bowl and flat mandolins, the top and plane of the strings is much lower and the pickguard is on the top on the instrument.

You need a completely free hand to certain strumming, picking, etc., but the majority of playing benefits from using the pickguard as a spacing device. Not a support device.

[Jim1hays]

Right hand technique, I have found, has as many opinions as what is the best pick to use. I too am retraining my right hand technique to free floating as I found myself resting on the bridge and causing it to shift, thereby knocking the mandolin out of tune. NOT a Good Thing! I have found by adjusting my strap where my pick strikes the top set and bottom set of strings evenly when picking. I also hold my pick at a 10 degree(or as close to 10 as possible) as I pick. This allows the pick to slide over the strings and helps me adjust the height/depth of the pick so I am not putting too much pick to the strings. I lose a little volume but this will come, I am told, once I have the muscle memory corrected. It also eliminates sores being rubbed on the thumb, palm, and other fingers by the bridge and top of the adjusting screws on the bridge. This has increased my accuracy and speed as well. But again, ti will not happen over night. Practice makes perfect!

[stevedenver]

I use whatever technique is comfortable.

All my mandos have pick guards, ie raised finger rests.

I dont rest my pinky.
But when i have,

As noted, they tell me 1 where the plane of the strings lies, 2 a sense of relative string distance, 3 florida frets do not interfere one jot 4 i never dig in too deeply, no matter how frenzied 5 mandos dont have divots in the tops from resting 6 the bridge is never tempting to use as a rest.

But, because of this initial resting, its easy to develop the muscle memory and transition to not resting the pinky, and use a loose wrist, etc.

I know banjo technique has 1-2 resting fingers. Even mine!

I think its important to not substitute floating for forearm tension, too. I used to experience this in flatpicking, when someone told me, erroneously, to use the forearm, not the wrist.

Do what works for you. Many players have different techniques.

[DavidKOS]

I use whatever technique is comfortable.

All my mandos have pick guards, ie raised finger rests.

I dont rest my pinky.
But when i have,

As noted, they tell me 1 where the plane of the strings lies, 2 a sense of relative string distance, 3 florida frets do not interfere one jot 4 i never dig in too deeply, no matter how frenzied 5 mandos dont have divots in the tops from resting 6 the bridge is never tempting to use as a rest.

But, because of this initial resting, its easy to develop the muscle memory and transition to not resting the pinky, and use a loose wrist, etc.

I know banjo technique has 1-2 resting fingers. Even mine!

I think its important to not substitute floating for forearm tension, too. I used to experience this in flatpicking, when someone told me, erroneously, to use the forearm, not the wrist.

Do what works for you. Many players have different techniques.

Although I agree about the actual pickguard parts of your post, I do not agree with the concept of "Do what works for you".

There is a tradition over a century old of mandolin teaching, and they have worked out what is the most efficient way to play the instrument.

Sure many folk players have their own way of playing and indeed it "works" for them.

However, the ideal is to have technique that does not limit your playing, and many of these personal techniques do NOT allow for unlimited technical playing.

The sheer number of posts about players asking how to play faster, more accurately, or how to not hit the bridge, or whatever, show that personal techniques do not always work well - and that learning the traditional time-tested classical mandolin techniques would have avoided proves this.

"Many players have different techniques"

And many of the best players also have very similar techniques, too. Sure you can point to some famous player and find an example of everything "wrong" - heel planted, pinkies planted, odd pick holds, etc.

But does that prove anything other than that one guy practiced a lot? And if they are that good with less-than-ideal technique, how good would they be with great technique?

This whole "anything goes" attitude in music is pernicious and drops the level of technical ability by suggesting that it doesn't matter if you learn to play the mandolin well, it's all OK, because your personal style, however limited, is just as good as the finest classical mandolin players'.


Anyway, if a person thinks they can come up with a better plan to play mandolin than has been devised by the masters of the past, I'd like to see it. Mostly these alternative techniques are just bad technical form, no matter who is using it or how you justify it.

Final thought - these players will play well in spite of their technique, not because of it.

[AlanN]

Yep.

There is good technique and 'less than good' technique. Butch Baldassari (R.I.P.) was a stickler for optimal technique and stressed it mightily in his teachings.

[DavidKOS]

Yep.

There is good technique and 'less than good' technique. Butch Baldassari (R.I.P.) was a stickler for optimal technique and stressed it mightily in his teachings.

And Butch knows good technique! Great example.

[banjoboy]

You’re possibly moving the hand in a scooping action when you get faster. When you speed up things will tend to revert to however they were before. Practice sweeping fully across all four courses while keeping the knuckles and thumb level & rather than making it all wrist action make it a loose wrist controlled by a relaxed forearm.

If you look along the back of your hand while you pick with all the knuckles level do you see the pinky knuckle popping in and out of vision? That would show how much your thumb is being angled into the strings on the other side. See if you can do that fast without the knuckle of the little finger showing at the low part of the stroke.

One thought on position is that it helps to keep the left hand side of the mandolin well out from that side, so the right hand is reaching around less, giving you more relaxed muscles to play with.

I have been brushing my fingers on the pick-guard, not really planting like I did as a banjo player. But I have been trying to free-float my hand, with my connection to the mando being my forearm. I'm assuming that a closed but loose hand, that I will increase my speed. I was assuming that this was a physics issue. I considered things like persons who compete in ice dancing. When they spin with their arms/legs away from their bodies, the spinning is slower. But as they bring their limbs closer to their bodies, the speed of their spin increases. If the picking hand is loose, then the weight of the fingers would decrease speed. This is my assumption. With regard to resting lightly on the bridge, I tend to scoop my pick in a U shape if playing slower. This decreases as I speed up.

[FLATROCK HILL]

There is good technique and 'less than good' technique. Butch Baldassari (R.I.P.) was a stickler for optimal technique and stressed it mightily in his teachings.

And Butch knows good technique! Great example.

Short vid here of Butch's technique. First part of video with no pickguard/finger rest. Last part of video, Butch is playing mandolin with finger rest.



Looks to me like a pretty loose right hand with a pretty constant light brushing on either the top or the finger rest.
I like it and I like Butch. So... is this the 'optimal technique' you guys are talking about?

[DavidKOS]

Short vid here of Butch's technique. First part of video with no pickguard/finger rest. Last part of video, Butch is playing mandolin with finger rest.



Looks to me like a pretty loose right hand with a pretty constant light brushing on either the top or the finger rest.
I like it and I like Butch. So... is this the 'optimal technique' you guys are talking about?

It's close....I noticed when younger he extended his fingers more and was almost planting - now he's not.

Notice the inner movement of his fingers holding the pick, too.

[pops1]

I brush the guard with three fingers, I never plant, very similar to the video. My fingers are more extended than Butch's are, he curls his ring and pinky fingers more than leaving them out, and sometimes it looks like the pinky almost plants. Glad my self learned technique seems very similar to what I am supposed to be doing. It has worked well for me for decades. I don't plant when playing banjo as I am a frailer, but I do when finger picking guitar. Interesting that on some instruments it is acceptable to plant and others not. It is also interesting one would find the correct playing position on 3 different instruments with 3 different styles of playing. Brushing, planting, and totally free hand.

[Todd Bowman]

I have a couple of Homespun videos, one with a young Chris Thile, and one with Mike Marshal. Both players talk about keeping the right hand fingers relaxed (no tension) in a curled (not fisted) position. They also both talk about LIGHTLY resting the fleshy part of the palm just behind the bridge -- Gator refers to it as "grazing," not resting. Also, both players mention that on the very rare ocassion (like when performing a fast tremelo up the neck, away from the bridge) their pinky may temporarily rest on the top/or pickguard.

I started out 30+ years ago planting my fingers for reference, then I noticed that all the good players usually kept their fingers curled and off the top/pickguard. It took a while and a lot of intentional practice, but it got there. It is definitely a muscle memory thing, so in the beginning, it has to be intentional before it becomes reflexive.

I like the advise from DavidKOS in post #15, you can't go wrong with the tried and true classical techniques. It's easier to learn a way that is known to work than make your own technique work the hard way.

And to bring it back to the banjo... Learn the way you want to do it and as Earl said in his book, "repeat 1000x."

[FLATROCK HILL]

...he (Butch) curls his ring and pinky fingers more than leaving them out, and sometimes it looks like the pinky almost plants. Glad my self learned technique seems very similar to what I am supposed to be doing.

Same here pops.
The problem for me is that I'm somewhat self conscious about this configuration. With my middle finger left to its own devices, it tends to extend sometimes. A casual observer might think it is a reaction to their request for Wagon Wheel.

[DavidKOS]

I don't plant when playing banjo as I am a frailer, but I do when finger picking guitar. Interesting that on some instruments it is acceptable to plant and others not. It is also interesting one would find the correct playing position on 3 different instruments with 3 different styles of playing. Brushing, planting, and totally free hand.

That's what makes it interesting!

Since you mention it, technique changes with the instrument.

Lutes were played with a planted right hand, and many guitar books suggested the same method:

http://luteshop.co.uk/articles/rhtechnique/

"3. The little finger rests lightly on the soundboard, not on its tip but on its side, most of the last joint being in contact with the soundboard. "

With the development of the modern "Spanish" guitar, with raised fingerboard and higher string tensions, etc., the technique became one with no support for the right hand, other than planting the plucking fingers on the strings on a prepared stroke.

Banjos are divided by style - ignoring the 4 string flatpicked banjos, the frailer-clawhammer guys don't plant the pinky much, the post-Scruggs pickers almost all do.

[Todd Bowman]

Here an interesting video of Chris Thile on "The pick hold" that goes into a lot more just holding the pick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdhVC0DzfFY