Worm Over F style tuners

[MikeEdgerton]

The day anyone gets close to these in nickel and in gold they will own that market. Rubner comes close except for the black and the fake button holder. Alessi gets really close except they don't make a worm over F style (as far as I know). Every Gibson F model made from the early 30's (maybe earlier) to the early 50's most likely had similar tuning machines. These are from a nice 30's F5 in the classifieds.

Did Sam Bush have his head stock plugged and re-drilled to accept the Waverly tuners I think he uses now?

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't know how old these pictures are but that mandolin has worm over tuners.

[William Smith]

Hey Mike, I've been in contact with Stew-Mac because either Waverly or Golden Age needs to make these tuners! They already have the plain and engraved bump end plates for guitar that both Waverly and Golden Age makes so making the worm over gear mando tuners from the late 20's-30's seems that it would be easy and there is a market for them for sure! Too many old Gibsons need these tuners! I will call them again and also David Harvey said to me he would give them another nudge. I know I'd be good for quite a few sets!

[MikeEdgerton]

Well, I think both Mike Black (if I recall) and I have been asking for them for a few years. They have the pieces you'd think they'd just make them.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's kind of like the missing link. You can get Loar style worm under F style tuners and you can get replacement Kluson F style tuners for the later years. You just can't get these and the tuners right after these.

[oliverkollar]

Every Gibson F model made from the early 30's (maybe earlier) to the early 50's most likely had similar tuning machines.

FYI.....I have a '27 F2 with the same tuners in the 2'nd image.

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, then maybe earlier is back into the late 20's.

[William Smith]

Yes Gibson changed to worm over gear in late 20's through the actually early 40's with Waverly but there are a few sets of worm over gear Klusons that were n the late F-4's,F-7's and F-5's, all metal button except the few pearl button Kluson F-5 tuners. I didn't call yesterday but today I will. Like I said they already have the correct plates and there are loads of vintage Gibson's that would benefit if they made these replica tuners. I'm happy I'm not th only one that thinks this!

[grassrootphilosopher]

Just a basic question (out of ignorance):

If you swap worm-under-tuners from one side to the other side of the headstock, you will have to turn them around/over. Does that give you worm-over-tuners? Do they fit?

Thread-derailer: My Strad-O-Lin tuners - while they are original - keep the tuning very well, yet until you get there you are out of cuss words and sweat as well as having aged a bit. It would be nice to replace them (for convenience sake). But I don´t think that modern tuners will fit as I have been told that the tuner spacing is different. How´s the spacing on old Gibson tuners - and is there a replacement for old Strad-O-Lin tuners without redrilling etc. (I would never want to harm this old lady)?

[William Smith]

No they won't work switching worm under gear around, The button shafts would be upside down/opposite. You may be able to take your Stradolin tuners apart and clean them, there was a thread not too long ago about cleaning/restoring original tuners. I believe the spacing on the old 20's F-5's for worm under is the same for worm over gear. Basically Waverly quit the worm under gear arrow head type and moved to the bump end worm over gear that's why a lot of later ferns have the tuner holes drilled through the inlays, they must've inlayed peg heads first "for worm under gear" then drilled for the tuners. That's how my mid 30's F-5 fern is, drilled right through the fern leaves, granted mine is one of the few with the rare gold plated Kluson pearl button tuners. There are some later Ferns with properly positioned fern inlays so depending on who was drilling the holes accounted for the tuners they had.

[HoGo]

No they won't work switching worm under gear around, The button shafts would be upside down/opposite. You may be able to take your Stradolin tuners apart and clean them, there was a thread not too long ago about cleaning/restoring original tuners. I believe the spacing on the old 20's F-5's for worm under is the same for worm over gear. Basically Waverly quit the worm under gear arrow head type and moved to the bump end worm over gear that's why a lot of later ferns have the tuner holes drilled through the inlays, they must've inlayed peg heads first "for worm under gear" then drilled for the tuners. That's how my mid 30's F-5 fern is, drilled right through the fern leaves, granted mine is one of the few with the rare gold plated Kluson pearl button tuners. There are some later Ferns with properly positioned fern inlays so depending on who was drilling the holes accounted for the tuners they had.

Actually you can disassemble worm under tuners such as Waverlies or (older) Schallers and switch the shafts so they are worm over but you will have to turn them in oposite direction tu tune up because the direction of the cut of gear/worm are opposite.
Schaller used to make both configurations (cut right or left worm/gear) but they both came assembled looking like worm under (and they called the standard worm under as reverse while US suppliers call them normal) which cused lots of mistakes (I received wrong tuners twice in 5-6 atempts). The new grand tune Schallers are available only in worm under AFAIK.
I think any of the manufacturers could do it easily as the gears in worm over are the same as in the guitar tuners - it's the "standard" worm under mandolin tuners that have opposite direction to the rest of the common instruments.

[MikeEdgerton]

You can get tuners that fit your Strad-O-Lin and turn the correct way. Measure the distance between the posts, center to center.

These tuners fit the older Gibson A style, worm under and 23.60 mm center to center on the posts.

The newer spacing (after the mid 20's) was 23.00 mm and worm over. A whole lot of people make tuners in this size including these from Stewmac.

[Austin Bob]

The day anyone gets close to these in nickel and in gold they will own that market. Rubner comes close except for the black and the fake button holder.

I like those worm over Rubners you sold me Mike. They are very smooth and look cool on my old oval, but I can see how they are not for everyone.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually you can disassemble worm under tuners such as Waverlies or (older) Schallers and switch the shafts so they are worm over but you will have to turn them in oposite direction tu tune up because the direction of the cut of gear/worm are opposite.
Schaller used to make both configurations (cut right or left worm/gear) but they both came assembled looking like worm under (and they called the standard worm under as reverse while US suppliers call them normal) which cused lots of mistakes (I received wrong tuners twice in 5-6 atempts). The new grand tune Schallers are available only in worm under AFAIK.
I think any of the manufacturers could do it easily as the gears in worm over are the same as in the guitar tuners - it's the "standard" worm under mandolin tuners that have opposite direction to the rest of the common instruments.

The new Grover's in worm over configuration turn the wrong way as well (unless something has changed). I know somebody is going to jump in and say it's no big deal but if Rubner, Gotoh, and Kluson can make them right the others should be able to as well.

With Schaller apparently abandoning that market there's even more room for a premium manufacturer of worm over F style tuners.

[MikeEdgerton]

I like those worm over Rubners you sold me Mike. They are very smooth and look cool on my old oval, but I can see how they are not for everyone.

They really are nice tuners.

[Willie Poole]

First Quality at one time had worm over tuners because I bought a set, can`t say if they still stock them or what brand they were...

Willie

[MikeEdgerton]

First Quality at one time had worm over tuners because I bought a set, can`t say if they still stock them or what brand they were...

Willie

There's another thread here someplace with every worm over f style available. I was looking for a set at the time. They are sold lots of places. Some aren't very historically accurate. Currently you can find worm over F style tuners that turn correctly made by:

Rubner
Gotoh
Kluson

You can possibly find some new old stock made by Schaller. There is also one other unknown brand name sold by All parts that looks like a Schaller knock off with a screw on button.

You can buy Grover worm over F style tuners but they turn backwards. You might be able to find new old stock or used Grovers that turn the correct way.

FQMS would probably be one of the last places I'd look. When Bill Sullivan passed that company changed totally. They aren't what they used to be.

Most modern F style mandolins are being made with worm under tuners and there are all sorts of tuners available for for those. My journey started when I bought a Korean made copy of an H5 mandola that has worm over tuners. At this point I probably should just plug the holes and redrill it for worm under tuners.

[jswag]

There's another thread here someplace with every worm over f style available. I was looking for a set at the time. They are sold lots of places. Some aren't very historically accurate. Currently you can find worm over F style tuners that turn correctly made by:

Rubner
Gotoh
Kluson

You can possibly find some new old stock made by Schaller. There is also one other unknown brand name sold by All parts that looks like a Schaller knock off with a screw on button.

You can buy Grover worm over F style tuners but they turn backwards. You might be able to find new old stock or used Grovers that turn the correct way.

FQMS would probably be one of the last places I'd look. When Bill Sullivan passed that company changed totally. They aren't what they used to be.

Most modern F style mandolins are being made with worm under tuners and there are all sorts of tuners available for for those. My journey started when I bought a Korean made copy of an H5 mandola that has worm over tuners. At this point I probably should just plug the holes and redrill it for worm under tuners.

I want to make sure I understand you, "turning correctly" on these worm over tuners means when the button is turned counterclockwise, it tightens the string. Clockwise, it loosens the string.. Right? I'm trying to find some worm over like that for a Jade mandolin I have.
Thanks!

[William Smith]

I just called Stew-Mac and talked for quite a bit about the necessity of the vintage style tuners, I said that the Waverly and Golden age that they sell for guitar already have the correct bump end plates, plain and engraved just like the F-5's from the late 20's-40's. He said others have asked for them also! I was told to send another email to their marketing dept. and explain things, so in a bit I will so with all luck in the soon future we'll be able to get the correct repro tuners for all our old Gibson mandolins! That will be a blessing for a ton of oldies out there be it F-2's thru the F-5's! Lets see if I can do some more persuading! Wish me luck!!

[MikeEdgerton]

I want to make sure I understand you, "turning correctly" on these worm over tuners means when the button is turned counterclockwise, it tightens the string. Clockwise, it loosens the string.. Right? I'm trying to find some worm over like that for a Jade mandolin I have.
Thanks!

Yes, on the bass side counter-clockwise tightens the string.

I don't know what brand of tuners Bob had them put on those mandolins originally.

I've managed to get a set of Gotoh's recently new and two sets of Schaller's (the old style) used. The Gotoh's are readily available from All Parts in nickel. I don't know about gold.

[MikeEdgerton]

I just called Stew-Mac and talked for quite a bit about the necessity of the vintage style tuners, I said that the Waverly and Golden age that they sell for guitar already have the correct bump end plates, plain and engraved just like the F-5's from the late 20's-40's. He said others have asked for them also! I was told to send another email to their marketing dept. and explain things, so in a bit I will so with all luck in the soon future we'll be able to get the correct repro tuners for all our old Gibson mandolins! That will be a blessing for a ton of oldies out there be it F-2's thru the F-5's! Lets see if I can do some more persuading! Wish me luck!!

I probably know who the others were

They haven't been responsive. I hope it works this time.

[jswag]

Thanks Mike!
I'm not sure what brand these tuners are on my Jade.
ALL PARTS just lists GOTOH A tuners (at least thats all I see today) I'm looking for Nickel F tuners.
The Grovers (on ALL PARTS) that are listed as "Reverse turning", do you know what they mean by that?
Thanks again

[MikeEdgerton]

For some reason All parts isn't all that descriptive. Give them a call on the phone and ask. These are the tuners you need to ask about providing you need worm over F style.

https://www.allparts.com/TK-0374-001...el_p_3625.html

I'm not at home or I could verify the number.

I bought my last set from Arkansasmusicworks on eBay. Basically the same price but the shipping is free. Let me see if I can find the link. They are in the AllParts packaging.

OK, here is a link to the tuners I bought. They were even cheaper than the AllParts price:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/331895099507

Unless something has changed and I doubt that those tuners have the correct orientation.

[HoGo]

For some reason All parts isn't all that descriptive. Give them a call on the phone and ask. These are the tuners you need to ask about providing you need worm over F style.

https://www.allparts.com/TK-0374-001...el_p_3625.html

I'm not at home or I could verify the number.

I bought my last set from Arkansasmusicworks on eBay. Basically the same price but the shipping is free. Let me see if I can find the link. They are in the AllParts packaging.

OK, here is a link to the tuners I bought. They were even cheaper than the AllParts price:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/331895099507

Unless something has changed and I doubt that those tuners have the correct orientation.

They appear to be correct from the pic... ///// orientation is correct for worm over...

[Troy Harris]

Rubner comes close except for the black and the fake button holder.

I think it’s important to mention that Rubner tuners do not use a fake screw to attach the button. The buttons can be removed and replaced. A metric screw (with a decorative head) is used to tighten the button to the shaft. Rubner does glue the button to the shaft, making the buttons difficult to remove. I modify the tuners to achieve a more traditional look.