Open Mic sessions and pickups

[misterstormalong]

There are two main amateur performance opportunities in the UK: Folk Clubs and Open Mic sessions, both typically held in pubs but sometimes in cafes. Folk Clubs are usually purely acoustic, but they are sadly suffering a slow death. Open Mic sessions are the new kid on the block. They are closer to popular taste and more eclectic, but they typically cater for singer-guitarists. In my experience they are equipped with vocal mics and leads for plugging in, but acoustic instrument mics are scarce.

Restricting one's choice of mandolin to those with pickups would be very restricting indeed, and I wouldn't want to mess about with an expensive mando by getting a pickup fitted after purchase.

Any experience or views about this dilemma?

[Br1ck]

The open mics only have one mic? No reason you can't use a vocal mic like a Shure SM 58 to mic a mandolin.

If you really need to amplify your mandolin, you can clamp a small gooseneck with a tiny condenser mic to your mandolin, but you will need phantom power from the board. There are also transducers that mount with putty that you can take off if you want with no damage to finish.

[MikeZito]

As has been discussed on these boards many times - a large percentage of people who come to live performances are not really connoisseurs of instrument tone. So if you want to avoid messing up your expensive mandolin by dropping electronics into it, you can try checking out brands like Ibanez, Stagg, Dean, Luna and a couple of other companies who make low-cost mandolins with built-in pickups. If you can find one that plays well, you can use it simply as your 'open mic' mandolin and enjoy a night of playing out without worry about your 'nice' mandolin . . . which you can save for better venues, jams with other musicians, recording sessions, etc. Many years ago my son played in a band with a guy who had an Ibanez 510-E which was a pretty nice mandolin, considering the measly $200 price tag. The only 'drawback' to these instruments is that they do not have active pickups - so as Br1ck said above, you will need some sort of pre-amp or phantom power source to get the necessary volume - which is something that many of these open-mic's may already have as part of their set-up's.

[misterstormalong]

I think for a typical Open Mic you need to fit in and be ready to go with a minimum of fuss so getting a cheap mando with a pickup etc seems to be the way to go.

[pops1]

I play out a fair amount and had no problem fitting in a K&K into my good mandolin. I used a tapastring jack so not to drill the endpin. A little more expensive, but I get to play the mandolin I love playing and the sound is amazingly good. I run thru a RedEye preamp. I makes no difference to the acoustic sound is there whenever I need to plug in. I also don't have to play a mandolin that I most likely wouldn't like playing or the sound of. The better your acoustic sound, the better your plugged in sound.

[Bob Clark]

I recently bought a Schertler Basik surface mic-type pickup. As Br1ck mentioned above, this one comes with a little canister of putty. You put a small ball of putty (maybe the size of a garden pea) on it and stick it to the top of your mandolin. It lifts off afterward with no mark of any sort left behind. It requires 10 volt phantom power, but the $159 kit version comes with an in-line power source. For the open mic night performance, you should be able to plug the venues cord directly into the adaptor.

Admittedly, I may be biased toward Schertler since I just won their amp drawing, but I was debating buying this pickup prior to that lucky occurrence and I really am impressed with it. I play open mic nights, and I find that sometime the mics pick up my mandolin just fine, sometimes not so well. This is a relatively cheap solution that, through this amp and I am hoping through others, keeps my mandolin sounding like my mandolin. That is true whether I play my Pheonix or my Crystal Forest or my Weber mandola. They each sound distinctly as they do unplugged.

Sure, you could buy a cheap mandolin with a pickup just for these venues, but I like to take my good instrument wherever I am playing. That is why I have them. For example, to practice on my Phoenix and then go out and play an inferior instrument seems counter intuitive to me. Others will disagree, and their points are just as valid. I am stating what works for me.

So, this is a possible solution for you. Whatever you choose, have fun playing out!

[stevedenver]

I have the more pricey schertler mando pickup, also with putty.

Amazing pick up. Dead true tone. No piezo boxy shrillness.

1 it is xlr, not a mono 1/4".
2 it requires 48v phantom power, ie from a pa system, or, your own external source.
3 the putty holds well, and is 100% inert, i use it on varnish mandos.
4 i now run the thin cord under the tailpiece, and, use an elastic o ring to secure the cord to the end pin, to protect against a hard tug
5 i use a stomp box that is, essentially, an on/off sitch, for tuning or sudden feedback.

Schertlers are great.
Otoh, a better quality mic that doesnt require phantom or xlr might be more practical.

Im extremely pleased with mine.

[farmerjones]

This thread made me look up L. R. Baggs pickups for mandolins. The samples sound great. I'm not surprised. Their fiddle pickups sound great. They're not cheap. Fiddle pickups are 3-400USD. Mandolin pickups are only 150USD. Up to the point I found the Baggs pickup for my fiddle I'd have argued most all pickups sound the same. (Not too good) No, I don't work for Baggs.
I still use an 8USD Cherub pickup on my guitar and mandolin. They attach with a spring tension clip. They can move off the sweet spot if you move around and pull on the cable. 8USD isn't much of a gamble. Beware their cables are not the best. in that respect, one gets what one pays for. I chopped a standard 1/4 pin guitar cable in half and soldered it onto the Cherub cable. I think I even ran it for a time strip/twist/tape, with no problem.

As far as use, I've battled with and SM57. It's not the mikes fault. But they run into the board with the vocals and then out of my control. Obvious advantage of a pickup is less feedback. But consider running it into one's own amp. Possibly even an effects pedal. Sure, everything costs a bit, but a Roland Microcube may be enough. I sort of built my "bubble" the way I want, then they can take and do with it what they want. I should probably care more about my vocals but one can't polish a cow-pie.

[Nevin]

How big are these venues? I ask because mandolins can be a lot louder than you think and you may not need to amplify at all.

[MikeZito]

This thread made me look up L. R. Baggs pickups for mandolins. The samples sound great. I'm not surprised. Their fiddle pickups sound great. They're not cheap. Fiddle pickups are 3-400USD. Mandolin pickups are only 150USD. Up to the point I found the Baggs pickup for my fiddle I'd have argued most all pickups sound the same. (Not too good) No, I don't work for Baggs.

Many years ago I bought a Taylor acoustic guitar from a fairly well-known pop musician who played with tons of major artists back in the 1970's and 1980's. This particular guitar was even featured in a full-page photo in 'People' magazine. The guitar was fitted with a Baggs pickup - and I can't tell you how many sound men told me how great the sound of that guitar was.

Now, if only I was as good, or as famous, as the guitar, life would be a different story right now . . . .

[Bob Clark]

How big are these venues? I ask because mandolins can be a lot louder than you think and you may not need to amplify at all.

Hi Nevin,

I don't know about the OP's venues, but the ones I play in are loud. One is really crowded and ear-bleed loud. Without a lot of amplification, nobody would even be aware that someone is playing!

[Ranald]

Hi Nevin,

I don't know about the OP's venues, but the ones I play in are loud. One is really crowded and ear-bleed loud. Without a lot of amplification, nobody would even be aware that someone is playing!

My sweetheart and I run a monthly Coffee House and our English immigrant buddy runs a monthly Folk Club on the British model, in Ottawa, Canada. Unlike at bars and pubs, people come to these places to hear music and sing along, and not to get drunk, impress people with their great wit, seduce someone, etc. If people talk during a performance, they are quieted by other audience members. We generally do not use amplification at all, and tell performers that, if they need to be amplified, they must provide their own sound system. We've rarely had problems, although sometimes bar performers, who are used to microphones, are much quieter speakers and singers than they realize. We, the founders, were all people who were in our late fifties when we started these venues, precisely because we were interested in both group singing and folk music in the older meaning of the word, (mainly) traditional music passed on orally, but didn't have a venue except gatherings in homes. Folk Clubs and Coffee Houses, popular from the fifties to the eighties, seem to be largely gone. Needless to say, our regulars are mostly older folks, and no one is getting rich and decadent by playing at our venues. The emphasis in other local "folk" venues is on singer-songwriters. There are numerous jams in pubs around town, though musicians often play for each other, and for half a dozen interested people, while being ignored by most patrons (who nonetheless do turn up on jam night).

Hey, hey, Mr. Stormalong, your original post, written in England, could have been written by me in Canada. And folks, let's not get into a debate about what "folk music" is -- I've been there and done that. I'm just explaining what type of music we're interested in.

[mbruno]

If you cannot use a mic on your instrument (typically the best sound) then the external pickup is the next best thing. I use the LR Baggs Radius on my mandolin that does not have a built in pickup and I always use a pre-amp DI (LR Baggs Venue) whenever I plug in so I can control the tone somewhat. For what it's worth, the LR Baggs Venue DI is pretty popular among bluegrass musicians on tour - I see them everywhere!

If I was in your shoes, I would get an external pickup with a decent powered DI. If you play at this place often, then I'd suggest once you dial in the sound on the DI, mark it off with tape / marker etc so you can get a more consistent sound (understanding that the person running the PA may vary their settings so it may not be "perfectly consistent" but better than nothing). Added benefit of a powered DI, they have kill switches which mean you can tune without the audience having to hear it.

https://www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/radius-mandolin-pickup

https://www.lrbaggs.com/preamps-di/v...coustic-preamp

[Charlie Bernstein]

There are also cheap (under $10) clip-on mics and decent ($30-to-$60) stick-on mics that don't require any modification at all. I've used Dean Markley's stick-on mic, and it sounded good and didn't leave any marks:

Dean Markley Artist

Its tone is fine, but I agree with Mike Zito: tone doesn't matter at an open mic. And the clamp-on external pickups that Baggs and K&K offer have their own problems, as you'll see if you read some of their reviews. For your purposes, something more modest would probably be a more satisfactory choice.

PS - Several people suggested using blue tack-on putty instead of Markley's adhesive. There are a lot of brands. I found a pack for about $3 - a lifetime supply - and it worked fine.

[farmerjones]

And the clamp-on external pickups that Baggs and K&K offer have their own problems

For record, L. R. Baggs Radius pickups are held on by a clear adhesive pad. The 1/4 jack to which the pickup is attached, however is clamped on. install manual

[Willie Poole]

At most of the open mics that I have been to the owners of the bar don`t have to pay the musicians so why can`t they afford to include a few mics and a mixer/amp for the pickers instruments, one place that I used to go to weekly paid a sound man, a lot cheaper than paying a whole band...As Nevin said, mandolins carry the sound a lot farther than most of us realize, my band plays two gigs each year without using a sound system and we record every show with the recorder in the back end of the room and every thing comes through just fine but we don`t have a noisy crowd either, the people come to listen and they don`t speak a word when we are playing...ala The Birchmere in Va. NO TALKING WHEN THE BAND IS PLAYING....

Willie

[JeffD]

I bought a small relatively portable acoustic amp and a microphone, a Shure SM57. Usually the amp isn't needed, the venue can just plug the mic into their amp.

[Bob Clark]

My sweetheart and I run a monthly Coffee House and our English immigrant buddy runs a monthly Folk Club on the British model, in Ottawa, Canada. Unlike at bars and pubs, people come to these places to hear music and sing along, and not to get drunk, impress people with their great wit, seduce someone, etc. If people talk during a performance, they are quieted by other audience members. We generally do not use amplification at all, and tell performers that, if they need to be amplified, they must provide their own sound system. We've rarely had problems, although sometimes bar performers, who are used to microphones, are much quieter speakers and singers than they realize. We, the founders, were all people who were in our late fifties when we started these venues, precisely because we were interested in both group singing and folk music in the older meaning of the word, (mainly) traditional music passed on orally, but didn't have a venue except gatherings in homes. Folk Clubs and Coffee Houses, popular from the fifties to the eighties, seem to be largely gone. Needless to say, our regulars are mostly older folks, and no one is getting rich and decadent by playing at our venues. The emphasis in other local "folk" venues is on singer-songwriters. There are numerous jams in pubs around town, though musicians often play for each other, and for half a dozen interested people, while being ignored by most patrons (who nonetheless do turn up on jam night).

Hi Ranald,

That sounds absolutely wonderful. If your venue was nearby, I would be a regular.

Unfortunately, that type of venue is no longer found in my area, or if they exist, I have not found them. They would be much better suited to the music I play. I really do wish there was one of that type nearby. But in this instance, I just have to deal with what is available.

Best wishes, Bob

[misterstormalong]

Open Mic venues vary a great deal. Some are filled with fellow musos waiting their turn to play and are mostly respectful of the performer, some are like graveyards run to keep a few people in a dieing pub, others can be ruined by one table of inebriated revellers guffawing at their own conversation.

I play with a guitarist and banjo player. In a small amenable venue with an attentive audience we will elect to play acoustically, but it's also a question of fitting in.

In a previous life I had plenty of experience of singing unamplified in pubs with a lot of background noise. You do the best you can because you are a guest and can't tell the locals to shut up.

Conversely, a venue that is set up as an Open Mic also has to be respected. You could insist on playing acoustically but it would be odd if you were the only one to do so and you could look like an over-confident prima donna.

It's different when you've been booked. You can call the shots to some extent. But when you're just the next act in a queue, it's best to be as cooperative as possible. I say this as someone who also acts as a compere/roadie in an Open Mic session myself, so I've seen this from both sides.

[sblock]

Instead of installing a pickup, why not just carry along your own microphone and a gooseneck clip to attach it directly to the existing mike stand, creating a two-mike solution (vocals and instrument)? You'd probably get better sound.

[Ranald]

Open Mic venues vary a great deal. Some are filled with fellow musos waiting their turn to play and are mostly respectful of the performer, some are like graveyards run to keep a few people in a dieing pub, others can be ruined by one table of inebriated revellers guffawing at their own conversation.

I play with a guitarist and banjo player. In a small amenable venue with an attentive audience we will elect to play acoustically, but it's also a question of fitting in.

In a previous life I had plenty of experience of singing unamplified in pubs with a lot of background noise. You do the best you can because you are a guest and can't tell the locals to shut up.

Conversely, a venue that is set up as an Open Mic also has to be respected. You could insist on playing acoustically but it would be odd if you were the only one to do so and you could look like an over-confident prima donna.

It's different when you've been booked. You can call the shots to some extent. But when you're just the next act in a queue, it's best to be as cooperative as possible. I say this as someone who also acts as a compere/roadie in an Open Mic session myself, so I've seen this from both sides.

I agree with you. I wasn't arguing, just commiserating and letting you know that the western world seems to be heading the same direction in terms of performance venues. I deal with the same issues as you.

[Br1ck]

At most of the open mics that I have been to the owners of the bar don`t have to pay the musicians so why can`t they afford to include a few mics and a mixer/amp for the pickers instruments, one place that I used to go to weekly paid a sound man, a lot cheaper than paying a whole band...As Nevin said, mandolins carry the sound a lot farther than most of us realize, my band plays two gigs each year without using a sound system and we record every show with the recorder in the back end of the room and every thing comes through just fine but we don`t have a noisy crowd either, the people come to listen and they don`t speak a word when we are playing...ala The Birchmere in Va. NO TALKING WHEN THE BAND IS PLAYING....

Willie

Well,the restaurant owner where my open mic plays pays $1600 a year for the right to perform copywrited songs in his business. He also serves dinner and two beers plus $100 to the host. He has done this for over ten years. He does this because he likes music and a sense of community. He does not view this as a draw for people being entertained.

Yes,people from the main bar area do drift in to the back room, and most of the open mic regulars do have dinner and a drink or two, and I hope that he might at least cover his expenses. Sometimes there is a pizza party of forty or more drinking folks, and it becomes just like playing a bar. I have six or seven bar tunes for those nights. This upsets some, but it's just the trade off. I like playing Brown Eyed Girl and Six Days on the Road once in a while just to remember my bar gig days.

So I think one would be wise to have an amplification devise, but I've played and sung into one mic before.

We have recently become so tired of people with K&Ks and the like plugging directly into the board that I bought a DI box so people would have no choice. I can't believe more people don't know about impedance mismatches. Shame on those who sell piezos and don't educate their customers.

So basicly, you need to be ready for all scenarios. Those who have gigged are well aware of the variables encountered at venues. You might as well be ready to provide your own power LOL.

[misterstormalong]

Just taking your own acoustic mic is a very clean solution.

Even the Open Mic session I help run is one acoustic mic short, but we're getting one of those mics you can group around in traditional Bluegrass style which will be fun.

[stevedenver]

Well,the restaurant owner where my open mic plays pays $1600 a year for the right to perform copywrited songs in his business. He also serves dinner and two beers plus $100 to the host. He has done this for over ten years. He does this because he likes music and a sense of community. He does not view this as a draw for people being entertained.

Yes,people from the main bar area do drift in to the back room, and most of the open mic regulars do have dinner and a drink or two, and I hope that he might at least cover his expenses. Sometimes there is a pizza party of forty or more drinking folks, and it becomes just like playing a bar. I have six or seven bar tunes for those nights. This upsets some, but it's just the trade off. I like playing Brown Eyed Girl and Six Days on the Road once in a while just to remember my bar gig days.

So I think one would be wise to have an amplification devise, but I've played and sung into one mic before.



We have recently become so tired of people with K&Ks and the like plugging directly into the board that I bought a DI box so people would have no choice. I can't believe more people don't know about impedance mismatches. Shame on those who sell piezos and don't educate their customers.

So basicly, you need to be ready for all scenarios. Those who have gigged are well aware of the variables encountered at venues. You might as well be ready to provide your own power LOL.

The DI changed my amplified mando life. went from boxy and shrill to more or less transparent and natural.

i use the baggs venue with my Rigel. and to me, it seems to sound great, very tweakable, easy to dial in the notch, but, I assume its an impedence mis match? (I have no clue what pup Rigel used /use as stock in their mandos. I have read its unique and proprietary, but my commonsense thinks otherwise.

would you have any insight into how to align impedence , ie using the Baggs DI with a non baggs pup?

[pops1]

Pretty much any transducer with any preamp is a match, some closer than others, but so much closer than without. The difference is night and day.