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Thread: Mold?

  1. #1

    Default Mold?

    I purchased a mandolin on eBay and when it arrived noticed that both the case and instrument have a pretty strong mold or mildew like odor. There is some staining just below the soundhole, does this look like mold or just some other type of marking that is nothing to be concerned about? I included a picture below, and would appreciate any insight others might have!
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Mold?

    Welcome to the Cafe! Sorry, but I'm afraid I can't help you with your 'Mold' issue.
    I thought you were checking up on Old Sausage.
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  4. #3
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    There are multiple threads discussing mold and mildew. Do a search.

    My original Gibson case had bad mildew to the point where I could not play the Mandolin without choking. I still have the case somewhere but I carry the mandolin in a modern hard case. The old case probably still has that smell but the Mandolin is fine.

    Take your Mandolin out of the case and leave them out in a dry place. Ideally in the sun on a warm day. There are multiple suggestions to rid the case of smells but it is not so easy.
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  5. #4
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Some past threads on the subject can be found here. If it was me I would be looking at using some sort of ozone treatment on it. It's mentioned in many of these threads.
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  6. #5

    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    ... I'm afraid I can't help you with your 'Mold' issue.
    I thought you were checking up on Old Sausage.
    Lol. And for anyone who doesn't already know, no that's not a private joke or something. David Mold, aka OldSausage, is a poster here at MandolinCafe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callithrix View Post
    ... There is some staining just below the soundhole, does this look like mold or just some other type of marking that is nothing to be concerned about? ...
    I can't tell from the picture.

    Doesn't really look like the type of mold I've seen in instruments, but that doesn't mean anything, there are probably different types and different appearances. The mold I've seen in instruments appears flat, doesn't stick up above the surface, and doesn't have sharp defined edges, more like mottled lightly-tinted areas with blurry edges. (Not like the black mold I've seen in years past, growing *behind* the drywall in houses. Must be different species of molds.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Callithrix View Post
    ... both the case and instrument have a pretty strong mold or mildew like odor. ...
    Well, FWIW, my experience living in a climate that has very high humidity most of the year, is that once mold gets established in wood or any other porous material (books etc), it's there for good and you'll never completely be able to remove all the mold spores and get rid of the smell. I've tried everything in years past - NOT RECOMMENDING these, especially NOT for musical instruments!!! just saying the desperate things I've tried included liberal doses of spray Lysol which is supposed to kill mold (on the surface, but that doesn't do anything below the surface where the rest of the mold lives), as well as applications of chlorine bleach (do *not* breath the fumes, I found that out the hard way). Yeah those NOT-recommended extreme treatments produced a temporary lessening of mold smell for about a week (the last go-round of that was in 2x4's and drywall in a previous house) but the mold smell always came back even though the source of the excess moisture had been corrected. (This is one of the reasons I have zero interest anymore in used musical instruments, no telling where they've been or what they've been exposed to - nearly *every* single used instrument (and cases) I bought in years past had an awful mold smell to it.)

    I read somewhere once that mold spores will grow and flourish in common construction materials (including wood, of course) even with no direct water source as long as the air's relative humidity is above 65 percent, which it often is around here regardless of the time of year. Here, no one uses humidifiers, most people don't use anything at all, but those who do, use DE-humidifiers to dry the air out so it's not so humid. Not exactly normal for the rest of the world though.

    There's probably always going to be some amount of mold spores (whether visible or not) in just about any environment. Maybe not that big of a deal unless you happen to be allergic to mold, as I am. Then it becomes a health issue and not just a 'funny smell' thing.

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  8. #6

    Default Re: Mold?

    What?

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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    Lol. And for anyone who doesn't already know, no that's not a private joke or something. David Mold, aka OldSausage, is a poster here at MandolinCafe.
    Oh...

    I thought you meant this...

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    To me it looks more something that happened when the stain was applied during the finishing process. If the back and sides are not sealed, stain can bleed through to the inside. It looks like your mandolin has some pretty rich color on it, would love to see a photo of the whole instrument.
    Charley

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  14. #9

    Default Re: Mold?

    I have a guitar case that got a terrible mildew smell from a moldy humidifier sponge. I put a saucer of bleach in the case and closed the lid. Two days later, everything was fine. I still use that case today.

  15. #10

    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moss View Post
    Lol!

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    A few years ago I bought an old guitar online and although it had no strong smell upon opening the case, as soon as the instrument vibrated while being played, a strong smell came out and actually triggered asthma (which I had not had for years). This continued in spite of everything I tried.

    I tried several things to cure the instrument problem, but eventually had to sell it at a discount.
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  18. #12

    Default Re: Mold?

    Thanks for the replies everyone- I will check out the other mold-related threads, and the mandolin needs to be restrung anyway so that will be a good opportunity to get a better look (and try and take a better picture). I’ll also try airing out the mandolin outside the case for a little bit and see if that makes a difference. I myself haven’t had an instrument with such a musty smell before, but it’s hard to tell right now how much of it is coming from the case.

  19. #13
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Contrary to what JL277Z wrote, mold smells are not necessarily "here for good and you'll never completely be able to remove all the mold spores and get rid of the smell." What he really meant to say, I think, is that none of the treatments that he'd tried had ever worked! And I believe that. Often, the topical application of bleach and other liquid disinfectants doesn't manage to reach down into the deeper pores in the wood, and so -- especially in humid areas -- the mold remains alive, and the smell returns with it. But once mold is actually killed, it stops smelling after a time, because the smelly and volatile chemicals produced by living mold eventually just degrade, or thy diffuse away. You need a way to get down deep into the wood pores with a powerful disinfectant.

    This is where professional ozone gas treatment comes into play. And yes, it does work to kill mold and also to eliminate the current odors! It penetrates deeply into wood and other porous materials. I would seriously look into it if I were you. I write from actual experience.

  20. #14
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Looks like stain spatters rather than mold - but who knows?

    I've done water & fire damage restoration to wood and upholstery products, and ozone treatment is the way to go for odors. Does a great job. Rent a machine.

    And if you do, follow the instructions. You shouldn't remain in the room while the machine is running.
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  21. #15

    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Contrary to what JL277Z wrote, mold smells are not necessarily "here for good and you'll never completely be able to remove all the mold spores and get rid of the smell." What he really meant to say, I think, is that none of the treatments that he'd tried had ever worked! And I believe that. Often, the topical application of bleach and other liquid disinfectants doesn't manage to reach down into the deeper pores in the wood, and so -- especially in humid areas -- the mold remains alive, and the smell returns with it. But once mold is actually killed, it stops smelling after a time, because the smelly and volatile chemicals produced by living mold eventually just degrade, or thy diffuse away. You need a way to get down deep into the wood pores with a powerful disinfectant.

    This is where professional ozone gas treatment comes into play. And yes, it does work to kill mold and also to eliminate the current odors! It penetrates deeply into wood and other porous materials. I would seriously look into it if I were you. I write from actual experience.
    The ozone treatments, must be something new (last 20 years or so?), I hadn't heard of it before. FWIW, 30 seconds on Google led me to numerous websites opposed to the use of ozone for mold (of course the internet is going to contain websites opposed to just about anything and everything) - some websites compare ozone treatments to "snake oil" which serve to separate consumers from their money - but so far I've only skimmed some of the articles so I don't know if there's anything to their position. And of course anyone who can type can put articles on the internet, so who knows the accuracy of the objections to ozone. I would automatically be suspicious if the ozone-opposition contingent was trying to sell some other product instead, but that didn't seem to be the case on at least some of the pages I've seen so far, unless I just didn't read far enough. I would have to research it more thoroughly.

    Here's an example of one of the many anti-ozone websites I found today - I don't know how many of such websites are reputable but here's what it says:

    "Ozone Generators are another futile attempt to "kill" mold instead of cleaning it up. This "magic bullet" approach does not work and can destroy some building materials as well as the health of building occupants.

    "Because of the trouble and cost of performing an effective mold cleanup in buildings, some vendors offer what sounds like an attractive alternative, offering to "kill all building mold" using ozone.

    "One Midwest company offers to tent the building and follow a mold extermination procedure.

    "It would be silly to leave Aspergillus sp., a problematic and easily-airborne mold, in place on this subfloor, trying to "kill it" with a sterilizing gas or spray.

    "Killing mold is not the same as "removing" problem mold: As with the "bleach" and other "kill the mold" approaches we described above, this process fails to remove the problem reservoir from the building, leaving toxic or allergenic particles, even if they are no longer viable.

    "Trying to kill mold with ozone risks oxidizing other building materials: One of our clients, in an effort to remove odor and mold problems from their building, rented a commercial ozone generator ran it aggressively in closed rooms in their home.

    "The ensuing odors, which we tested and traced to oxidized carpet padding, were so severe that the building was no longer habitable. Carpeting had to be removed as well as other oxidized rubber and foam products which had been "ozone treated."

    "Worse, the underlying cause of the original complaint, which we traced to a history of flooding basement and wet building materials there, had gone unrecognized and still needed to be addressed.

    "There are valid applications of ozone as a disinfectant but it is not a valid treatment for mold in buildings."

    But, that's possibly an entirely different scenario that merely neutralizing an odd smell in a musical instrument.

    As to houses and other buildings, in earlier years the standard advice from the health experts of that time, was to rip out all the mold-damaged content and replace it with new, otherwise the mold would just grow back. I've personally seen people I know disregard those instructions, with disastrous and even more costly consequences. (They didn't have ozone though, maybe that would have helped - or not. Who knows.)

    I'm not currently facing mold situations, but if it ever crops up (ha! no pun intended) again, I will do some extended research on the ozone treatments to try to sort out the truth. So, thank you for the info! Always good to have options.

  22. #16
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Use something soft to swab the inside of the mandolin. If it's mold,you'll pick up some form of 'powdery' substance & most likely see a smear on the inside. To my eyes it looks dry. Also,looking at the random 'speckles',i wouldn't rule out some form of overspray from the finishing. There are a few medically approved mold killers - Microban is one of them. A soft pad of some form,lightly moistened with it could be used to swab the affected area : - " One application kills allergy- and disease-causing germs, fungi, mold, and mildew.". Hopefully it isn't a mold !,
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Unless the mold is still actively growing, you may not get spores or stuff (viable stuff) coming off on a swab. The main thing is to keep it dry. Even 35-50% RH should be fine. For bacteria, yeasts, and molds to grow they need an energy source and water. Those could just be older mold stains on the wood and no longer an actively growing concern (or not). Direct sunlight (so long as it's not hot enough to melt the glue in the neck can be a good treatment for this. The case may be able to be addressed from those linked threads above. Lots of sunlight and drying out is key.

    As it's an old Weber, you could also reach out to Bruce at his new site for technical advice. He know's his finishes best.

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  24. #18
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    The ozone treatments, must be something new (last 20 years or so?), I hadn't heard of it before. FWIW, 30 seconds on Google led me to numerous websites opposed to the use of ozone for mold (of course the internet is going to contain websites opposed to just about anything and everything) - some websites compare ozone treatments to "snake oil" which serve to separate consumers from their money - but so far I've only skimmed some of the articles so I don't know if there's anything to their position. And of course anyone who can type can put articles on the internet, so who knows the accuracy of the objections to ozone. I would automatically be suspicious if the ozone-opposition contingent was trying to sell some other product instead, but that didn't seem to be the case on at least some of the pages I've seen so far, unless I just didn't read far enough. I would have to research it more thoroughly.

    Here's an example of one of the many anti-ozone websites I found today - I don't know how many of such websites are reputable but here's what it says:

    "Ozone Generators are another futile attempt to "kill" mold instead of cleaning it up. This "magic bullet" approach does not work and can destroy some building materials as well as the health of building occupants.

    "Because of the trouble and cost of performing an effective mold cleanup in buildings, some vendors offer what sounds like an attractive alternative, offering to "kill all building mold" using ozone.

    "One Midwest company offers to tent the building and follow a mold extermination procedure.

    "It would be silly to leave Aspergillus sp., a problematic and easily-airborne mold, in place on this subfloor, trying to "kill it" with a sterilizing gas or spray.

    "Killing mold is not the same as "removing" problem mold: As with the "bleach" and other "kill the mold" approaches we described above, this process fails to remove the problem reservoir from the building, leaving toxic or allergenic particles, even if they are no longer viable.

    "Trying to kill mold with ozone risks oxidizing other building materials: One of our clients, in an effort to remove odor and mold problems from their building, rented a commercial ozone generator ran it aggressively in closed rooms in their home.

    "The ensuing odors, which we tested and traced to oxidized carpet padding, were so severe that the building was no longer habitable. Carpeting had to be removed as well as other oxidized rubber and foam products which had been "ozone treated."

    "Worse, the underlying cause of the original complaint, which we traced to a history of flooding basement and wet building materials there, had gone unrecognized and still needed to be addressed.

    "There are valid applications of ozone as a disinfectant but it is not a valid treatment for mold in buildings."

    But, that's possibly an entirely different scenario that merely neutralizing an odd smell in a musical instrument.

    As to houses and other buildings, in earlier years the standard advice from the health experts of that time, was to rip out all the mold-damaged content and replace it with new, otherwise the mold would just grow back. I've personally seen people I know disregard those instructions, with disastrous and even more costly consequences. (They didn't have ozone though, maybe that would have helped - or not. Who knows.)

    I'm not currently facing mold situations, but if it ever crops up (ha! no pun intended) again, I will do some extended research on the ozone treatments to try to sort out the truth. So, thank you for the info! Always good to have options.
    Ozone treatment actually works, but there are, indeed, some snake-oil salesmen out there -- hence the websites you came across. There are real issues. Among the issues are cheap, ineffective, and underpowered ozone generators made in the Far East that are sold to the unsuspecting public at bargain prices. Folks buy these online to do their own ozone treatments and are inevitably disappointed by the results. You need to use a full-power, commercially rated ozone generator. The best way to do this, unless you plan to go into this business, is to go to a reputable place that does this sort of treatment professionally, rather than trying to do it yourself. Another issue is with fraudulent or shady businesses that claim to be able to treat entire homes. That is a whole 'nuther problem! In houses and larger buildings, not all the interior spaces (e.g., inside walls) exchange air well enough to experience the ozone treatment, and it can be hard to seal the exterior, too. So the treatment can be utterly ineffective. This is not a problem with the ozone, per se, but with the access to the mold itself. So yeah, there have been some unscrupulous vendors making extravagant claims about building abatement, and some disappointed clients who felt ripped off. Because they were.

    That said, ozone works very effectively for smaller things than houses, like car/truck interiors (e.g., those that have mold, or that had a skunk'ed dog run around inside them -- don't ask me how I know!), furniture, suitcases, clothing, instrument cases, and so on. And musical instruments.

    I had a mandolin and case treated that had been in the house of a chain smoker before I bought it. It really smelled strongly of stale tobacco smoke, especially the case and linings. I tried all manner of commercial deodorants and over-the-counter treatments, to no avail. I tried lots of sunlight and fresh air, and also a UV lamp. I tried waiting months for it to somehow "air out." No relief. Then I took it to an auto shop that specialized in ozone treatment. This worked perfectly.

    A knowledgeable ozone professional will proceed carefully, and only treat the absolute minimum amount necessary (checking at different time intervals), to avoid over-treatment and oxidizing things. You can also take the precaution of removing the mandolin tailpiece, tuners, and strings (all the metal) before treatment, which I would advise. I did not detect any visible oxidation of the frets, incidentally, so I would not worry about that. Again, insist on the minimum exposure.

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  26. #19
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Can't speak to ozone treatment "killing mold" - especially when it might be inside sheet rock or some such in a building - but as I mentioned in a prior post, I've personally used it and it's now my go to method for removing odors.
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    Default Re: Mold?

    I have a solid/acoustic bass and that has old "mould" (as we who speak English spell it) marks visible through the dummy sound hole. I assume it got damp at some stage in its 30 year life.

    I mention this as the mould marks are more prominent on the bass's label than the wood. I suspect a paper label would be more susceptable to mould but the o/p's label seems to be entirely clean.

  28. #21
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    My first thought was red wine but the clean label doesn’t fit that scenario. Did Sound to Earth a.k.a. Weber use vinyl or paper labels? David L’s suggestion of an overnight bleach treatment of the case might help if your careful to not spill it on the linings. I personally would contact Bruce Weber for his suggestions and thoughts on having the instrument and case treated professionally in an ozone bath. I remember reading that Bruce has seen a lot of damage to their instrument from wet wick type humidifiers adding too much moisture to the interiors.
    This thread reminds me of my A-4 blacktop.
    I purchased Boo, a 1913 A-4 from Elderly back in 2007. When the instrument arrived, my wife Donna and I opened the case and were immediately transported to an antiquity of the olfactory bouquet reminiscent of days past. The instrument was all original in excellent condition but obviously had been closed up most of its life. We both agreed the aroma reminded us of the rooms we had toured in old preserved historic homes and museums. It turned out to be mostly coming from an old wrinkly handkerchief in the case folded under the headstock. We decided to leave the handkerchief in the case since we liked the way we became olfactory time travelers when the case was opened. The old scent since then has diminished but we both still remember the day we opened that case and let 1913ness out into our home.
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  29. #22

    Default Re: Mold?

    As others have said, Ozone treatment really does work on mold and other odors. A couple cautions: 1. Ozone can damage rubber. But there's normally no rubber on a mandolin or a vintage case. Some 50's Fender cases have foam rubber padding, so not a good candidate for Ozone treatment. Probably the carpet padding damage cited previously was foam rubber padding. 2. Breathing Ozone can cause lung damage. But we're not suggesting you do this in your living environment. Preferably take your case to a company that does professional treatment of smoke and water damage. They can treat your case on their premises.

    Steve

  30. #23
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    I have a solid/acoustic bass and that has old "mould" (as we who speak English spell it) marks visible through the dummy sound hole. I assume it got damp at some stage in its 30 year life.
    Hmmmm... maybe it is a UK term, but what is a "solid/acoustic bass?" Sounds like a contradiction in terms or an oxymoron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loudloar View Post
    As others have said, Ozone treatment really does work on mold and other odors. A couple cautions: 1. Ozone can damage rubber. But there's normally no rubber on a mandolin or a vintage case. Some 50's Fender cases have foam rubber padding, so not a good candidate for Ozone treatment. Probably the carpet padding damage cited previously was foam rubber padding. 2. Breathing Ozone can cause lung damage. But we're not suggesting you do this in your living environment. Preferably take your case to a company that does professional treatment of smoke and water damage. They can treat your case on their premises.

    Steve
    Hey, Steve. Would you recommend it for my old moldy Gibson A case. I think it came with my snakehead so dates to about 1923. There's not rubber, right? What about anything in the handle (I think it is original)?
    Jim

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    Default Re: Mold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Hmmmm... maybe it is a UK term, but what is a "solid/acoustic bass?" Sounds like a contradiction in terms or an oxymoron
    It's not directly relevant to this thread but I thought someone might ask. Basically, its a two inch thick slab of mahogany with a five string fretless neck and a Baggs under-saddle pickup (no other on-board electronics). From the front, it looks like an acoustic but it sounds like an upright bass with endless sustain. One day, I might do it justice!

  32. #25

    Default Re: Mold?

    Thanks for the suggestions everyone, those are some good ideas for things I could try. Airing the mandolin out definitely did not solve the problem, and as one of the previous posters mentioned the smell seems worse when the instrument vibrates. I do have a question out to Weber, and will report back if I learn any interesting information.

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