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Thread: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

  1. #1

    Default G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    So I'm new to mandolins, but have a pretty nice Kentucky KM1000.

    I played a really premium small-builder F-style the other day and was amazed by the open, hollow, ringing G strings. Basically, they had the crisp attack I thought was only available on the A and E strings.

    While I certainly don't expect my (comparatively) humble Kentucky to perform at the level of the small-builder mandolin, I would really like to add some crispness and attack to the low G strings, as well as remove some mud.

    Are there some simple tricks for this, i.e., a certain string type/gauge, saddle material, etc.?

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    I am not a luthier but I believe that having a perfectly executed nut can affect the tone of individual strings. Sometimes even just the angle of the slots can have some effect. I am assuming that you have relatively new strings on your Mandolin.
    Jim

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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    When I am sampling mandolins, I look for (listen for, actually) a mandolin whose D and G strings sound like a downward extension of the tonality exhibited by the E and A strings. It's ok if they get progressively 'darker' as they get lower, but I want a continuum, not a noticeably different tonality when going from the A string down to the D string. I don't like the lower strings to sound muddy but I don't want them twangy either.

    I don't expect that any of what I just said makes much sense to anybody but me, but it sounds similar to what op vanguard is discovering. I find that the sound I am looking for costs more than a similar quality build without that sound and usually it is coming from a mandolin made by a US based builder whose name we would not have recognized 30 years ago.

    All that having been said, choice of strings has a huge impact on tone color, especially with the wound strings. Also, as Jim mention, new strings vs old strings - big difference. Experiment with some different brands and types. I had good old D'Ad EJ74's on a mandolin I was very disappointed with because of muddy sound from the base strings, tried some Elixer Nanoweb strings and zowie wowie, it sounded great. I love D'Adaddario EJ74s on other mandolins, but they just didn't work on this one. So try some different ones.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    I find intonation makes a huge difference on the G string especially. If you change string gauges, if humidity raises or lowers you action, or the strings move the saddle forward slightly it will deaden the sound of the G string. Other things will help too, but don't forget this important part when playing.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  5. #5
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    KM1000's, especially the recent ones are generally excellent mandolins. You may have setup issue there if the problem persists with fresh strings. Visit good mandolin luthier and have him examine what's going on. You may have a loose tonebar or something as well...
    Adrian

  6. #6
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    What brand / gauge are the strings ?. Are they the ones that came on it or are they new ?. You might try raising the bridge height on the G string side just a fraction. Too low an action can rob any mandolin of it's clarity & volume. Try a different brand(s) of strings. Not all strings suit all mandolins = GHS A270's don't suit my Weber "Fern" ,
    Ivan
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    You didn't say how the D string sounded? It's difficult to alter the mando's tone short of trying some different strings or checking for setup issues. That light, popping, hollow G is inherent to how the mando is built.

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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Also don`t forget to try some different picks, I run into that all of the time as the weather changes so I keep quite a few picks laying around so I cane try and get the right sound out of a mandolin, these things are funny instruments to keep sounding the same all of the time...My Kentucky sounds great with GHS A-270`s on it, so you might try a set of those, some GHS string sets have a thin G string so just any set of GHS`s might not do the trick...

    Keep us posted and let us know if you get it corrected...

    Willie

  9. #9

    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Wow, so much wonderful insight and advice--thanks!

    My KM1000 is a beautiful instrument and sounds amazing in so many ways; it's just this one little tonal thing that's bugging me a bit. The quality of the materials, and the attention to detail in shaping and carving is really just incredible.

    I got it a little over a month ago with a fresh setup and new strings. I haven't changed the strings yet so it sounds like that's my first stop. I'll be sure to try it tonight and report back with the results. I'm a long-time guitar player and favor older strings on my acoustics, but it sounds like that preference may not carry over into the mandolin world. Is there a certain string set known for clarity on the G and D strings?

    I'm using Dunlop 1.5mm Primetone picks.

    I did find the action to be both higher at the nut, and lower up the neck than the small-builder mandolin I tried and loved. If a string change doesn't do the trick, perhaps I'll take my Kentucky to the small builder who made the great mandolin and have him set it up.

    My KM1000 was upgraded with a James tailpiece and a Cumberland bridge before I got it.
    Last edited by vanguard; Apr-16-2018 at 10:53am.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    You might try a set of strings with nickel or Monel wound basses and see if they suit your ear and your mandolin.

  11. #11

    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Okay, I changed the old strings and the marked difference in patina compared to the new ones suggests the strings were older than I was led to believe at purchase.

    Tone is now considerably louder and more muscular on all strings.

    G strings are much less dull and muddy than before, with increased clarity and more of that ringing, hollow sound it turns out I really love in a mandolin. They do still have, however, this tonal quality that almost makes them sound as though they're singing from a different instrument than the other three pairs; a sort of compression and mutedness or something.

    Much closer to what I want with the new EXP74 set, which was included with the mandolin. May look into the nickel wound strings suggested by rcc56.

    Anyway, still amazed at the quality of this mandolin overall. The obsessive adherence to '20s Gibson specs just destroys Far-East attempts at analogous instruments in the acoustic guitar world where I have more experience. I held the Kentucky up to the light and compared curves and carves to hi-res pics of real 20s F mandolins and was floored by the accuracy. The fact they use American red spruce and sugar maple, along with a thin and impeccably applied nitro finish is also really cool.

  12. #12
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    take some time and look over the bridge-make sure there is a tight fit with no light coming thru on any area where it meets the top of your mandolin-and maybe consider an aftermarket bridge by one of the known bridgemakers who frequent this forum.
    A tight fitting, well built bridge can oft times improve a lot for any instrument

    http://bridgerproducts.com/brekke_bridges (Vern Brekke)
    https://www.montanalutherie.com/ (Bruce Weber)
    http://cumberlandacoustic.com/

  13. #13
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Compressed tonal quality is a great description and now I know what youre hearing. That sound is inherent in the mando. If you want a different G tone then you'll need to find a different mando.

  14. #14

    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Compressed tonal quality is a great description and now I know what youre hearing. That sound is inherent in the mando. If you want a different G tone then you'll need to find a different mando.
    Interesting. By "inherent to the mando," do you mean inherent to F-style/F-hole instruments, Kentucky KM1000's, or my particular instrument?

  15. #15

    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Update:

    Strung up the Kentucky with EXP74 and the two low pairs still sounded crummy.

    On earlier advice, I ordered a set of Mangan monel medium strings. Long story short: problem solved! All string pairs now have the same clear, articulate timbre, even the G pair. I cant believe that's all it took, but I'm overjoyed it was such an easy fix. Sounds just like the old Monroe tones I hear in my head now.

    So, I highly recommend Mangan monel strings for loud, woody, clear G and D strings.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: G strings on F-style dull, muddy, lacking attack. Fix?

    Right strings, better sound. Now you know.
    Timothy F. Lewis
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