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Thread: Tunings?

  1. #1
    Registered User G7MOF's Avatar
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    Default Tunings?

    How did tunings come about for different instruments. For instance would they have looked at chord shapes or scales to find the correct way to tune that particular instrument whether it be 4/6/8 or 12 string instruments. There are obviously loads of different ways to tune the individual instrument such as Ukes GCEA Mando's GDAE Guitar EADGBE the instrument developer must have had enormous ways to look at it to come up with the easiest one to play?
    I hope I've got my question over correctly.
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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Here's an enthusiastic reply:
    http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/altern...alltunings.pdf
    Enjoy!

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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    My guess is that tunings evolved much like other aspects of music -- slowly and organically. By that I mean, that they evolved from experimentation, innovation, and from the bottom (from the making of music, not the application of theory to music). To me, one of the great appeals of music is that it seems to be innate in humans. There is music in all cultures and music has an appeal that goes well beyond curiosity and emotion.
    Because of its centrality in human life, music didn't develop as an intellectual exercise until very late.
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Can you please send me this via e mail
    suburude@comcast.net
    Thank youJim Franey/suburude

  6. #5

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Please e mail me this if you could suburude@comcast.net
    Thank you Jim Franey /suburude

  7. #6

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by atsunrise View Post
    Here's an enthusiastic reply:
    http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/altern...alltunings.pdf
    Enjoy!
    Please e mail me this article if you could
    Jim Franey. suburude@comcast.net
    Thank You!

  8. #7

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Part of it is hand span and fret size. Mandolin and fiddle are tuned in fifths because you can cover the seven frets between strings without shifting your hand. If you tuned in fourths you would be shifting a lot more and dealing with the closer frets trying to get two octaves out of four strings. If you tune a guitar or bass in fifths the distance to the next string would become long and you would nave to shift hand position before moving to the next string.

    I read once that guitar started out with a four string instrument, with a balanced tuning then strings were added at the bottom leading to today's weird tuning. Of course fingerstylists use many open tunings to try to get easier chord shapes and open strings that harmonize with melodies but like the many banjo tunings they tend to favor certain keys.

  9. #8

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    I read once that guitar started out with a four string instrument, with a balanced tuning then strings were added at the bottom leading to today's weird tuning. Of course fingerstylists use many open tunings to try to get easier chord shapes and open strings that harmonize with melodies but like the many banjo tunings they tend to favor certain keys.
    Vihuela had six courses in the 1500s, and was tuned with the same fourth-fourth-fourth-third-fourth intervals as the modern guitar. When the Renaissance guitar emerged, it was as a four-course instrument with the fourth-fourth-third intervals of the inner courses of the vihuela.

    That tuning gives great chord forms achievable across all six strings.

    The mandore, four-course ancestor of the mandolin, was tuned fifth-fourth-fifth.
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

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  11. #9
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    I don't think anyone can account for the long tortuous historic process leading to this or that tuning. On reason for the odd third, g to b, on the guitar could be that the intervals add up to exactly two octaves, facilitating numerous chord forms (except the stacked fourths of Stanley Jordan). Also, it's nice to have a minor triad on top (easily turned into two different major triads by raising just one note) a major triad next to it, and a seventh between the bottom two strings. Basically it's an open emin7 tuning, and most other guitar tunings use or almost use open chords, like G, D or DADGAD. The symmetry of the violin and mandolin tuning is useful on a soprano instrument but of no real value on a guitar, given its range: the five lowest open strings cover bass clef plus a ledger line below. You think intervals differently in different ranges.

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  13. #10
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    This is my attempt at a list of factors. Some of these points are contradicting each other, and that's why there are different tunings. So make me an instrument that...
    - lets me shape a maximum of chords in all keys
    - lets me easily shape chords with a maximum of open drone strings in a limited class of keys
    - lets me play melodies with a minimum number of string hopping
    - lets me play melodies with a minimum number of open strings
    - gives me a maximum of resonance between notes (I want some open string resonate along with a maximum of notes fretted)
    - avoids all resonances (I want a totally dry tone for all fretted notes)
    - gives me all of the above on a minimum number of strings or courses (I don't like bulky wide fretboards)
    - gives me all of the above on a maximum number of strings or courses (I don't like the tone when fretting high up)

    These requirements lead to such different instruments as
    - the violin family
    - classical guitar
    - bouzoukis, 10-stringers and DADGAD guitar
    - the mandolin family
    - lutes and theorbos
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  15. #11
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    I believe that there ar over 100 alternative tunings for 5-string banjo - here's a few :- http://zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm

    How / why so many ? - we'll never really know,
    Ivan
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  17. #12
    Registered User G7MOF's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    What I meant was how was the original tuning developed on any instrument then did the person suddenly think that's good I can reach a C chord or whatever chord but how would they know what a C chord shape was.
    It's a little difficult to get over to you what I actually mean as the more I ask the deeper my question goes.
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  18. #13
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by G7MOF View Post
    What I meant was how was the original tuning developed on any instrument then did the person suddenly think that's good I can reach a C chord or whatever chord but how would they know what a C chord shape was.
    It's a little difficult to get over to you what I actually mean as the more I ask the deeper my question goes.
    I think the reasoning goes like this:

    For a C major chord I need to have the notes of the C triad, i.e. C, E and G somewhere.
    Step 1: building an instrument that has three strings tuned to C E G. The C shape is now 0-0-0. The D shape would be 2-2-2 and so on (you could make a slide resonator instrument with that already).
    Step 2: doubt - that's all very nice, but only one fifth is an awfully small range for an instrument. Also, you can do D minor with 2-1-2, but for C minor you'd have to get up to 12-11-12. Correct triads are available, but not all of them will sound good.
    Step 3: spread the tuning to C G C, so you have an octave now, but you must extra-fret the 3rds, so C major is 0-0-4 now (or 4-0-0. we have arrived at the strumstick, btw.)
    Step 4: doubt again - what if we want to have more complicated chords, say with a 7th? So we add a 4th string...

    ...and so on and on. The process is not finished yet.
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    I agree that it is an organic and evolving processes. It also is still going on. One thing I haven't seen much mention of is the role the instrument is used for. The violin family doesn't do a lot of chording, although arpeggios and double stops are common. Thus it is practical for a cello with a scale length around 27.5" to be tuned in fifths while a guitar which has a shorter scale length is not.

  20. #15
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Well, I don't think we will ever know with certainty how tunings developed, but I'd hazard a guess that as music evolved toward a system of scales and chords, at least in Europe and surrounding areas, instrument tunings reflected that evolution. It would make sense to be able to play a scale, or a series of scales, with the "fretting" hand in a single position, which would suggest intervals like thirds, fourths and fifths. It would also assist in making chords, with the standard Western root/third/fifth profile, if strings were tuned and positioned to make this comfortable.

    As to the overall tuning range -- how high or how low the strings are pitched, as opposed to their relative tunings -- instrument size and the desired "voice" of the instrument would be determinative. Treble, mid-range, bass instruments would need to be of different sizes and have different tuning ranges, pretty clearly.

    There have been past instruments with extremely extended necks, or with a large number of strings tuned at close intervals, but they haven't survived except as ethnically specialized, or "retro" re-creations of earlier eras. And of course we are talking mainly about instruments with "necks" that allow string pitches to be varied through fretting or stopping the strings at different intervals. In contrast, most zither-family (un-necked) instruments, the ones that don't allow stopping of strings -- from the Autoharp to the piano -- are tuned in either chromatic or diatonic scales, in ranges that comport with their sizes and desired "voices."
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  22. #16
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Hi G7 -I should have added to my post (# 11),that any of those tunings ''might'' have become ''the original''. Realistically,looking back at the African origins of the 5-string banjo - what was the actual 'original' tuning for it - many & varied maybe ?. Possibly it wasn't until it fell into the hands of more musically 'educated' players,that it gained some stability. Personally - i think that the 'absolute origins' of our instrument tunings are lost in time, & that only from the Medieval period in Europe,could we maybe more specific re.any tunings,
    Ivan
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  23. #17
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Tunings in 4ths and 5ths go back forever in the Middle East.

    The 5th is the next natural harmonic interval on a string after the octave.

    When European music began developing functional harmony, then the 3rd, the basis of chords, began being used and resulted in the various lute/guitar tunings.

    I assume musical needs were a big influence.

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  25. #18
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    9000 year old bone flutes using heptatonic scales found in China, also found with evidence of alcohol consumption. Probably only a case of time til mandolins are discovered...
    https://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/...lpr092299.html

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  27. #19
    Front Porch & Sweet Tea NursingDaBlues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by atsunrise View Post
    9000 year old bone flutes using heptatonic scales found in China, also found with evidence of alcohol consumption. Probably only a case of time til mandolins are discovered...
    https://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/...lpr092299.html
    "...six complete bone flutes between 7,000 and 9,000 years old. Fragments of approximately 30 other flutes were also discovered."

    They neglected to mention the fireplace poker that was found nearby.

  28. #20

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Hi G7 -I should have added to my post (# 11),that any of those tunings ''might'' have become ''the original''. Realistically,looking back at the African origins of the 5-string banjo - what was the actual 'original' tuning for it - many & varied maybe ?. Possibly it wasn't until it fell into the hands of more musically 'educated' players,that it gained some stability.
    There was a fascinating topic over on the Banjo Hangout a few years from a player who had gone to Africa and discovered that the banjo analogue there had a drone string, and that they still play a tune which is recognizably one of the oldest known banjo tunes in the US.

    Having been involved with musicians from Shona and Mali (as well as other African countries), I haven't found them to be any less musically educated than players of numerous other musical traditions, including many such cultures in the US and the UK. Even in traditions where they don't use written music or electronic tuners, some pretty robust traditions and bodies of music have emerged.

    Any, even with banjo and its ancestors, there is evidence that even though a player may use more than one tuning, some of those tunings do have great stability over the centuries.
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

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  30. #21
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    By 'musically educated' - i was thinking more of the tuning becoming 'stabilised' by the minstrels & banjo 'maestros' of the early 1900's,who might want a banjo to have a 'known & constant' tuning. I don't know what tunings were in common use in those days,but i kicked off learning 'Classic banjo' - waltzes / quicksteps / marches etc. & the standard tuning of the banjo for that music was G / C / G / B / D (5th to 1st).

    For Bluegrass music,we simply tune up the 4th C string to D,to give us an 'open tuning'. How all those other banjo tunings came to be,is anybody's guess,
    Ivan

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  32. #22

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Again, as there was an established and stable tradition and repertoire even before the banjo's forced movement to the US (due to the instrument being taken to the US by Africans captured to be sold as slaves there), the tunings and songs/tunes survived even from that time before the US imported the slaves playing the instrument.

    By "musically educated," are you only counting those who were either using the instrument for commercial purposes (the people in blacktop imitating the slaves) and/or those who wanted to imitate them? I'm not sure why the living tradition, including the stable traditional tunings, wouldn't be counted as stable, given that tunings and tunes managed to survive there and to be recognizable to an American banjo player.

    Anyway, it's clear that the instrument has maintained stability at its point of origin, so that rules out financial exploitation and the American minstrel shows as the reason and basis for such preservation and standardization.
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

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  33. #23
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    From Explorer - " By "musically educated," are you only counting those who were either using the instrument for commercial purposes (the people in blacktop imitating the slaves) and/or those who wanted to imitate them ?"

    Basically yes. Going back to that time,at the height of it's popularity,maybe 1,000's of tunes were written for banjo - (in the back of one of my old tutor books,there are over 100 listed ) for that to happen,you need what i'd term as a 'standardised' tuning,which in the event turned out to be G / C / G / B / D. However,i'm pretty sure that in one of my old books,there's one tune that requires one string (i can't remember which) to be raised in pitch,but that is an exception.

    If we accept that the banjo's 5th string was added after it's importation to the US - then a 'standard' tuning for the instrument in it's country of origin,would have been quite different to what it became. That doesn't however rule out the fact that there were maybe 'several' different tunings of the same instrument, as happened after it came to the US.

    As per.G7MOF's original question - 'who' (how) originated the G / C / G / B / D tuning which became the 'standard' ?,
    Ivan
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  34. #24

    Default Re: Tunings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    If we accept that the banjo's 5th string was added after it's importation to the US - then a 'standard' tuning for the instrument in it's country of origin,would have been quite different to what it became.
    Historical evidence, including actual surviving instruments from slaves from before minstrel shows, demonstrates that the drone string existed before the minstrel shows, instead of it being added by some "musically educated" white guy.

    http://banjoroots.blogspot.com/2007/...mb-string.html

    The illustration at top right shows an instrument from 1777, from a slave in Guiana, not even the US, so it's impossible for the minstrel shows to have influenced a captured African to add that drone string on the South American continent so much earlier.

    Anyway, for those interested, that article, and the physical evidence listed therein, is a great and definitive debunking of the false myth that "Joe Sweeney" added the drone string.

    At least now, there's no reason for us to repeat and spread that false myth.
    ----

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  36. #25
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunings?

    The Akonting is widely thought to be the closest African ancestor of what new-world and European peoples have associated with the banjo through the years. It has the short drone string.

    Also pretty widely accepted in the banjo community is that if Sweeny added a string to the banjo, it most likely was the normal length low string, not the short drone high string.
    -- Don

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