8 note bebop type scales

[bluesviolin]

Howdy Folks! my first post...I play violin (no mando) but I've been working on some 8 note bebop type scales, and ran across something that I think is quite interesting. the following 3 scales all have the same notes, but sound quite different depending on the tonic:

1. A B C D Eb E F# G A
2. C D Eb E F# G A B C
3. E F# G A B C D Eb E

I describe them as follows:

1. minor-ish bluesy
2. major-ish swingy
3. pure minor (aeolian)

has anyone else ran across the same thing in their travels? is their an 'official' name I could put to all 3, or individual names I could put to each?

[des]

That's really cool. As a bebop scale it puts the 6th scale note on the beat.

I don't know the name for the base scale here - start on G and you could call it Ionian add #5 - but there might be a more user friendly name - bebop add#5?.

Anyway if you start the scale on G and think of that as the first mode (Ionian - major) your scale no 1. starting on A is the second mode (dorian) , your scale no 2 starting on C is the fourth mode (lydian) and your no 3 starting on E is the sixth mode (aeolian) - which I think explains your accurate descriptions of the way they feel - minor-ish bluesy, swingy, pure minor.

All this terminology sounds daft and over thought but every now and then it throws up something amazing - for me a light bulb moment was encountering the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale. Putting it into practice is far more challenging

[bluesviolin]

@des: thank you for that explanation/breakdown, makes sense to me and helped me to grok what is happening.

funny you should mention the 5th mode of harmonic minor Phrygian Dominant, as it happens to be my current scale fascination. My favorite modes of the major scale are Lydian and Phrygian. I have not ventured much into harmonic minor modes, but I hear harmonic minor is good for a lot of jazz situations.

what I like to do is play more complicated stuff over simpler chord progressions...blues 1-4-5 12 or 16 bar etc. there can be a whole lotta tricks in that bag.

Cheers, Dave.

[Pete Martin]

Harmonic minor was used quite a lot by early beboppers as a way of navigating minor II V I. In minor keys II is IIm7b5, V is often V7b9 and I is ImMaj7.

The A harmonic minor scale has the notes A B C D E F G# A

IIm7b5 is Bm7b5, notes B D F A
V7 but is E7b9, notes E G# B D F
ImMaj7 is AmMaj7, notes A C E G#

Notice all the notes in all the chords are in the A harmonic minor scale?

[Pete Martin]

One way to look at these 8 note "bebop" scales is play them as 1/8th notes and see which notes fall on the beat in 4/4 time.

Scales 1 and 2 give a dimininished (Ao Co Ebo F#o). Not typical whole half or half whole diminished scales but would certainly work in some places.

Scale 3 gives a minor seventh (Em7). I use this scale often against long minor seventh chords.

[DavidKOS]

Harmonic minor was used quite a lot by early beboppers as a way of navigating minor II V I. In minor keys II is IIm7b5, V is often V7b9 and I is ImMaj7.

Get a copy of the Parker Omnibook and see how many times he uses that material.

One way to look at these 8 note "bebop" scales is play them as 1/8th notes and see which notes fall on the beat in 4/4 time.
.

exactly!

But I add one thing - I'm pretty sure NONE of the original boppers like Bird and Diz thought this way, they thought in terms of the chord arpeggios.

These so-called bebop scales are the after-effect of players trying to figure what works. Like Pete says, the added chromatics just put the accented notes on the strong beats.

Which is funny because the quintessential bop phrasing is on the usually unaccented beats!



these are the most common ones used in modern jazz ed

[bluesviolin]

well, I can see I'm gonna have a bit of trouble keeping up with you guys! would like to respond to the minor II-V-I. good ol' Jamie Aebersold offers 16 patterns over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. His approach is Locrian over the II and diminished/whole tone over the V7 (HWHWWWW) - G Ab Bb B C# D# F G.

He says of the dim/w.t. "This scale produces much tension and beauty, and is a sound most jazz players eventually lean towards" well I can't speak to that, but I can say that I think his patterns sound very nice.

My question is, could I use harmonic minor over these specific chords, and if so, would it be D, G, or C h/m or would it be one of the modes of h/m, or whatever advice you could give me.

@Pete Martin: I know you talked about it for A h/m, but if you or anyone could walk me thru it for Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin, would be much appreciated. I've already got these chords programmed into my antique Yamaha QY 100 music sequencer.

Thank you.

[DavidKOS]

well, I can see I'm gonna have a bit of trouble keeping up with you guys! would like to respond to the minor II-V-I. good ol' Jamie Aebersold offers 16 patterns over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. His approach is Locrian over the II and diminished/whole tone over the V7 (HWHWWWW) - G Ab Bb B C# D# F G.

bluesviolin, do you already know how to play jazz tunes based on the chords and the chord arpeggios and chord tones?

Because that is the older and better way to play jazz - the way all the old masters played.

The chord/scale method in the Aebersold books is very popular but is NOT the best nor only way to play jazz. It is however very popular but no one tells you that you need to know the old way first.

It is indeed a useful tool - but unless you know the chord arpeggios and chord tone way first, the chord/scale system will be confusing.

My question is, could I use harmonic minor over these specific chords, and if so, would it be D, G, or C h/m or would it be one of the modes of h/m, or whatever advice you could give me.
.

Let's look at those chords by pitch classes:

Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin

D F Ab C to G B D F A# (enharmonic to Bb) to C Eb G

The notes of the C harmonic minor scale

C D Eb F G Ab B C. Note the lack of the A#/Bb, but all other tones are present.

Frankly I prefer the chord changes of Dm7b5 to go to G7b9, as that chord has the Ab and is also in the C harmonic minor scale.

Anyway, if you are just beginning to learn jazz, find some other sources than Aebersold.

The play-alongs are fine, but take that chord/scale method as what it is - a tool for people that already know the chord arpeggio/chord tone method first.

[DavidKOS]

well, I can see I'm gonna have a bit of trouble keeping up with you guys! would like to respond to the minor II-V-I. good ol' Jamie Aebersold offers 16 patterns over Dmin7b5 > G7#9 > Cmin. His approach is Locrian over the II and diminished/whole tone over the V7 (HWHWWWW) - G Ab Bb B C# D# F G.

Really?

I just thought about this....

G Ab Bb B C# D# F G.

That does not even have the full chord tones for a G7#9; there is no C# or D# in that chord, and that scale lacks the needed D.

It would work over a G7alt chord, though.

http://www.jazzedmagazine.com/articl...improvisation/

"Jazz scales are the first things my new students ask about. They’ve heard of altered scales such as the whole tone and diminished and they get excited about their sounds, which are new to their musical universe. Popular play-along music books put much emphasis on scales, which feeds into the notion that scales are all one needs to know to magically transform into Miles Davis or John Coltrane......

In simple terms, the best-sounding solos feature the guide notes and color tones of each chord, vertically, and follow the chord changes through the song. Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie discovered this principle, playing bebop. Later, many great players such as Sonny Rollins, Freddie Hubbard, and Bill Evans advanced the concept in the less frantic jazz styles that followed."

[bluesviolin]

I will punch in the G7b9 and see what I can do with that. I read that article and it makes sense. Thank you. I play mostly blues, but dabble in jazz as kind of a hobby. I'm 65 and it's too late for me to get deep into jazz. besides, I like blues. I've got some tricks to jazz up my blues, but that's about the extent of it.

[DavidKOS]

I will punch in the G7b9 and see what I can do with that. I read that article and it makes sense. Thank you. I play mostly blues, but dabble in jazz as kind of a hobby. I'm 65 and it's too late for me to get deep into jazz. besides, I like blues. I've got some tricks to jazz up my blues, but that's about the extent of it.

All the better to not try to get hung up on the Aebersold method, and spend time with the chords and arpeggios! Best of luck.

[Pete Martin]

But I add one thing - I'm pretty sure NONE of the original boppers like Bird and Diz thought this way, they thought in terms of the chord arpeggios.

You're right David, I doubt they used these terms. I bet these came into being with Jazz teachers like David Baker, etc. needing an organizational method to teach improvising.

Chord tones are for me the best way to think when soloing, but knowledge of various scales that go with each chord doesn't hurt my playing. I feel it gives me various "colors" I can draw from at any time. While I'm not a great jazz player by any means, I feel like any note is available to me at any time due to my study of scales, chords, transcriptions, etc. It's up to me to make it work out. As you hear from my sound posts here, it is with varying degrees of success.

[DavidKOS]

You're right David, I doubt they used these terms. I bet these came into being with Jazz teachers like David Baker, etc. needing an organizational method to teach improvising.

Chord tones are for me the best way to think when soloing, but knowledge of various scales that go with each chord doesn't hurt my playing. I feel it gives me various "colors" I can draw from at any time. While I'm not a great jazz player by any means, I feel like any note is available to me at any time due to my study of scales, chords, transcriptions, etc. It's up to me to make it work out. As you hear from my sound posts here, it is with varying degrees of success.

Exactly!

Those chord-scales are wonderful resources for color and variety - but like you, I prefer to base things on the chords themselves.

Definitely David Baker was a factor in the spread of the chord/scale approach, and I think George Russells' "The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization" was also a big factor before the Aebersold play-alongs.

Thanks for all the effort you have put into the world of jazz mandolin.

[bluesviolin]

Anyway if you start the scale on G and think of that as the first mode (Ionian - major) your scale no 1. starting on A is the second mode (dorian) , your scale no 2 starting on C is the fourth mode (lydian) and your no 3 starting on E is the sixth mode (aeolian) - which I think explains your accurate descriptions of the way they feel - minor-ish bluesy, swingy, pure minor.

so... can we call these modal 8 note scales? I'm just waiting to say "Let them henceforth be known as Modal-Bop"

[DavidKOS]

so... can we call these modal 8 note scales? I'm just waiting to say "Let them henceforth be known as Modal-Bop"

1. A B C D Eb E F# G A
2. C D Eb E F# G A B C
3. E F# G A B C D Eb E
....... is their an 'official' name I could put to all 3, or individual names I could put to each?

This is interesting as they all differ slightly from the normal bebop 8 note scales and the 7 note phrygian mode.

I'm still seeing if I can find already agreed upon terminology for those modes.

other than to me, they are just chromatic variants of the closest common scale. But i'd like to find the pre-existing names music scholar have agreed upon.

[bluesviolin]

....yes, finding out if their were official names was one of the main purposes of the thread other than sharing them. Maybe I'm just looking for validation. but for what I mostly play, major and minor blues, I like these 3 better than major, Dom 7, and minor bebop scales.

I don't think #2 sounds that great descending, and I'll usually ascend with #2 and descend with #1. #1 seems to be ok for both ascend/descend . I like #3 when accompanying a folk guitar when doing Emin Amin type stuff.

[bluesviolin]

yeah, still on this...the 3 examples are exactly the same as 3 modes of harmonic minor with the addition of one passing tone, which falls on the same pattern.

#1 = Dorian #4 (4th mode of harmonic minor) with added passing tone of natural 4th.
#2 = Lydian #6 (6th mode of harmonic minor) with added passing tone of natural 2nd
#3 = harmonic minor scale with added passing tone of b7

anyhoo, maybe just another way of looking at it, but found it interesting that these are one added semi-tone to the harmonic minor scale and 2 of it's modes. It's the added semi-tone being in the same pattern that intrigues me.

I appreciate y'all discussing this with me... more interest than 2 fiddle/violin sites.