Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 51

Thread: Mandola and standard notation reading

  1. #1
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Mandola and standard notation reading

    First, I apologize for this question. However, I have accomplished a total confusion of myself relative to reading music for the mandola. I'm not talking about alto clef, but the standard treble clef.

    Where is "middle C"? the more I ask and the more I read the more confused I become, so, help, PLEASE.

    On a CGDA instrument (mandola, tenor guitar, tenor banjo) where is "middle C", not in theory but in practice. When you see the C note (first ledger line below treble clef) which note do you make, open fourth string, C, or the third string fifth fret of G string?

    I am not an accomplished musician or anything like that, I'm just trying to learn and love the sound of the mandola and want to read for it on the treble clef, if possible.

    Also if one would say that that note (C note below treble clef) is the fifth fret of third, G. string, then doesn't that make, in effect, make the mandola 75% like the mandolin?

    thanks for your help, but the more I think about this, the more confusing it seems to get. Thanks

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    611

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Also if one would say that that note (C note below treble clef) is the fifth fret of third, G. string, then doesn't that make, in effect, make the mandola 75% like the mandolin?
    I think you have answered your own question. The mandola is just a fifth below the mandolin (as a viola is to a violin). So it is missing the high e string of the mandolin, but adds the low c a fifth below the mandolin's bottom g string. Three of the four strings have pitches in common, although the strings are not identical (different gauge) because of the longer scale length of the mandola.
    Bobby Bill

  3. The following members say thank you to bobby bill for this post:

    CHASAX 

  4. #3
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    I have had this on my wall for years. Hope it helps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mandochargSM.jpg 
Views:	411 
Size:	144.4 KB 
ID:	166706  
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  5. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JeffD For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Decatur, GA
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    I play the "middle C" where ever I want. Sometimes on the open string, some times on the 5th fret of the G string. Depends on if there are notes below the C or on the sound I want. Some times I will shift whole sections or phrases up or down an octave.

    And yes, a mandola is 75% mandolin if you want to look at it that way but the tone is deeper because the G D and A strings are longer.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bob Visentin For This Useful Post:


  8. #5

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. Bryant View Post
    ... On a CGDA instrument (mandola, tenor guitar, tenor banjo) where is "middle C", not in theory but in practice. When you see the C note (first ledger line below treble clef) which note do you make, open fourth string, C, or the third string fifth fret of G string? ...
    Can some of the knowledgeable people take a look at my chart below and see if I got it right? I don't trust my proofreading ability on short notice like this, I put the chart together in a hurry in MuseScore & Photoshop, will be away from the computer for the rest of the day.

    If I did it right, middle C on piano, is 5th fret of 3rd string on mandola. I put the mandola in both treble clef and alto clef just to try to cover everything, hopefully. The notes in magenta are Middle C. Probably have to click the picture several times to make it big enough to see. I don't know how well it would print, haven't tested printing.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mandola-middle-c.jpg 
Views:	310 
Size:	354.9 KB 
ID:	166707


    Edit:
    I just noticed JeffD posted a different chart as I was making mine. Now there are two!

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jess L. For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    thanks, to all of you. Great charts! thanks so much. So they way it is sounding to me is that the C note below the treble staff is on the G string 5th fret. Middle C. Right? (unless you need to move it, or change octaves) I was looking at some tenor guitar and tenor banjo books and was confused in thinking that the c below the treble staff was the lowest note and also middle C. Oh well, " a mind is a terrible thing to lose". thanks to you all and I'm still looking and learning.

  11. The following members say thank you to J.C. Bryant for this post:


  12. #7
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    I am assuming all of this is correct for the Tenor guitar, or tenor banjo well. Right?

  13. The following members say thank you to J.C. Bryant for this post:


  14. #8
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. Bryant View Post
    I am assuming all of this is correct for the Tenor guitar, or tenor banjo well. Right?
    If they are also tuned CGDA. Many player of either also use GDAE and DGBE.

  15. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  16. #9
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    826

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    JL, your chart is perfect!

    When playing mandola from a treble clef part, if the part was intended for mandolin or fiddle, you often need to transpose it down an octave.

    Myself, please just give me alto clef!

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Louise NM For This Useful Post:


  18. #10
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post

    Myself, please just give me alto clef!
    How do you like tenor clef?

    The C clef is moveable.

  19. #11
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Some mandola parts are written with "treble octave" notation, so the notes are meant to sound an octave lower than written. In that case, the first C below the staff is the open C string.

    Of course, such parts are usually meant to be played on the octave mandolin.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mrmando For This Useful Post:


  21. #12
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    826

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Have never had to wrestle with tenor. As a violist, I live in alto clef. For viola/mandola, it fits the range well, keeping ledger lines to a minimum.

  22. The following members say thank you to Louise NM for this post:


  23. #13
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    I still find it confusing that the books on tenor guitar and tenor banjo (which I'm using to learn mandola) show the note on the first ledger line below the treble clef to be middle C. And it is the fourth string, C.

  24. The following members say thank you to J.C. Bryant for this post:


  25. #14
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    Have never had to wrestle with tenor. As a violist, I live in alto clef. For viola/mandola, it fits the range well, keeping ledger lines to a minimum.
    It's perfect as a viola clef.

    I never got used to reading tenor clef, though. Ask your trombonist buddies.

  26. #15
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. Bryant View Post
    I still find it confusing that the books on tenor guitar and tenor banjo (which I'm using to learn mandola) show the note on the first ledger line below the treble clef to be middle C. And it is the fourth string, C.
    Wrong. The first leger line below the staff in treble clef is in fact middle C, 261.6 Hz. On a tenor guitar or tenor banjo in standard CGDA tuning (same as viola or mandola), middle C is the fifth fret on the G string.

    If an instructional book tells you to play the open C string (130.8 Hz) when you see the C on the first leger line, you are not reading treble clef; you are reading "treble octave" clef, in which the notes sound an octave lower than written. When this convention is used, the treble clef may have a little octave symbol underneath it. But even if it doesn't, the definition of "middle C" does not change. "Middle C" is always 261.6 Hz and is always played in standard tuning by fretting the G string at the 5th fret, no matter what clef you are reading.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  27. #16
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    The nice thing about alto clef is that middle C is on the middle line of the staff!

    No other clef can say that.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  28. The following members say thank you to mrmando for this post:


  29. #17
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Well, Okay! I'm looking at "Mel Bay's Complete Tenor Banjo Method" and see no signs of treble clef octave signs, etc. Also, Hal Leonard's Tenor Guitar Method is the same thing. So, it is hard for a guy like me to understand it all. But, indeed, I do not in any way doubt what you say and I trust it completely. Thank you all so much for you time and for your information.

    Also, I simply do not find much alto clef material. I'm just wanting to play some tunes and some melodies. then I got caught up in this note reading issue. Sometimes the process is complex. But I will press on. thanks.

  30. #18

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by J.C. Bryant View Post
    Well, Okay! I'm looking at "Mel Bay's Complete Tenor Banjo Method" and see no signs of treble clef octave signs, etc.
    In the begining of either the book you name, or in the "Mel Bay's Tenor Banjo Melody Chord Playing System," and maybe both, he actually explains that the written music is one octave off from the actual pitch. He might use words similar to "sounding octave" or "sounding pitch."
    ----

    Playing a funky oval-hole scroll-body mandolin, several mandolins retuned to CGDA, three CGDA-tuned Flatiron mandolas, two Flatiron mandolas tuned as octave mandolins,and a six-course 25.5" scale CGDAEB-tuned Ovation Mandophone.

    Love mandola?
    Join the Mandola Social Group!

  31. The following members say thank you to Explorer for this post:


  32. #19

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    3rd finger on the g string, 4th fret

  33. #20
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Got it! Thank you all so much! You all are a very valuable resource and I appreciate your help. thank you

  34. #21
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ardnadam, Argyll, Scotland
    Posts
    2,281

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    Quote Originally Posted by themandocello View Post
    3rd finger on the g string, 4th fret
    This would give you a B - two whole tones above the open G. 5th fret for C.
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOldBores

  35. The following members say thank you to John Kelly for this post:


  36. #22
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    I'm committing to learning also clef. I know I will never be good or anything like that but I'm finding just the learning is fun. thanks

  37. #23
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    As far as I understand:
    Once upon a time, there were eleven lines. This was found hard to read (maybe spectacles weren't so advanced ), so the middle line was deleted, and when the note ("middle C") was needed, a small part of the line (a "ledger line") was written for the note to appear on.
    The whole concept of different clefs is merely the original system at an increased zoom level.

    I play mandola (and 10-string mandolin), and, being a pianist first and foremost, I write out my charts jumping between bass and treble clefs 'cuz I haven't gotten around to learning the alto clef. This discussion is making me wonder how much work it would be to get Sibelius to create a staff with an invisible middle line – I'd be comfortable with middle C on a ledger line in the middle of the staff, and I'd eventually learn the alto clef as a result.

  38. The following members say thank you to Jim Bevan for this post:


  39. #24
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    1,875
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    The type of music may be a factor in finding Alto clef charts and scores. Popular music and folk music publishers assume that most people do not know Alto clef. Whereas classical music publishers as well as classical mandolin music workshops offer the choice and often assume that a mandola player knows Alto Clef.
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

  40. #25
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    826

    Default Re: Mandola and standard notation reading

    J.C., there isn't as much out there as there is in treble clef, but there are possibilities.

    Mel Bay has one book of fiddle tunes for viola, in alto clef, with a lot of nice pieces in it. Works just fine for mandola. Several years ago, I bought a book of Beatles tunes in alto clef for a viola-playing kid. Not sure who the publisher was, but the cover was purple. That one would work well, too.

    Also, supposedly if you buy the TablEdit program, you can put anything in that format into any clef you like.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •