Looking for information about Lyon & Healy Chicago No. 15 Style C

[solojer123]

We've just acquired my wife's grandfather's mandolin.. Where can we find information about it?

Thanks for all the info and leads in advance

[Timbofood]

Post a few pictures, peghead, full front, full back, sides, tailpiece, bridge area, the more you share, the better information the L&H knowledgeable will be able to give you.
Sit back and get coffee, comfy chair, there will be plenty to read soon enough.
Cool that you have it to keep, do you play?

[Jim Garber]

These were part of family of the finest mandolins that Lyon & Healy made from the late teens into the 1920s. These days they are often the choice for classical players but are fine for most other genres. What do you need to know about your Mandolin? At Tim said, post some photos. Style C was the simplest designed of the three mandolin models. The A and B were the upper models tho all were well made. These all had carved tops and backs.

[MikeEdgerton]

Cafe member Hubert Pleijsier's book History of Washburn Guitar: Pre-War Instruments Styles, Guitars, Mandolins, Banjos and Ukuleles 1883-1940 has some catalog pages and other pictures of the lyon and Healy products. It is a very good read.

[mrmando]

Very low serial number! Possibly from the earliest batch in 1917.

[solojer123]

Here is an album with photos.. https://imgur.com/a/MMjtM

I would be interested in any and all information: history, value, playability, etc.

Thanks everyone

[solojer123]

Post a few pictures, peghead, full front, full back, sides, tailpiece, bridge area, the more you share, the better information the L&H knowledgeable will be able to give you.
Sit back and get coffee, comfy chair, there will be plenty to read soon enough.
Cool that you have it to keep, do you play?

I don't play -- my eldest son is much more musically inclined, and has expressed interest in learning (since this came into our possession).

[Charles E.]

Nice mandolin! Whatever you do, DO NOT loose that tailpiece. They are very hard to find and when you do they are very expensive.

If your son decides to take up the mandolin, this could be a life time instrument.

[rcc56]

These Lyon & Healy mandolins were introduced in the late 1910's and are instruments of very high quality. They were designed to compete with Gibson's mandolins. The craftsmanship is actually better than Gibson's was at the time. Lyon and Healy carved mandolins were unusually consistent in sound and workmanship.

The Style C was the plainest model, but has a sound that is just as good as the fancier Style A and Style B.

15 may be the lowest serial number I have seen on a Lyon & Healy. These very early models have a more substantial neck than later models.

These mandolins are very comfortable to play when properly serviced. Modern players often prefer larger frets than those that were in common use when this mandolin was made. If your son becomes serious about the instrument but finds it is harder to play than a modern one, you might consider having the frets changed. If you do so, make sure the work is done by someone who is thoroughly experienced with re-fretting antique instruments.

The market value on these mandolins is typically $1500 to $2000 if they are in good, original condition. If market values were based solely on instrument quality, they would probably bring more.

[solojer123]

Thank you! This is all extremely interesting -- I'm having a lot of fun learning about this instrument!

One question, however:

If market values were based solely on instrument quality, they would probably bring more.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. are you saying that it's of such a quality that it should be worth more, but because it is older and less desirable, it's worth less?

[Bob A]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. are you saying that it's of such a quality that it should be worth more, but because it is older and less desirable, it's worth less?

These mandolins are underpriced in the market; their tone, construction, and overall quality is on a level that is higher than most mandolins of a similar price. They tend to be unappreciated and relatively more obscure than other mandolins. If and when they are replicated by modern builders, the cost of a replicate would have to be higher than the asking price of an original instrument, because of the necessary level of workmanship involved.

Make no mistake: they are wonderful instruments.

[JeffD]

They are lovely instruments. I have played A, B, and C, and loved every single one.

I fully believe that, with slight twists of history, they could well have become the model everyone tries to emulate in their build, as opposed to the 1923 F5. Especially the model A, which I think is the most beautiful mandolin in the world. (The Gibson F4, in blacktop being my second most beautiful.)

[mrmando]

These mandolins are very comfortable to play when properly serviced. Modern players often prefer larger frets than those that were in common use when this mandolin was made. If your son becomes serious about the instrument but finds it is harder to play than a modern one, you might consider having the frets changed. If you do so, make sure the work is done by someone who is thoroughly experienced with re-fretting antique instruments.

In particular, Lyon & Healy mandolins have what are called "bar frets," of a different type than Gibson mandolins and indeed most other fretted instruments. This will have to be taken into consideration if the idea of using larger fretwire comes up. Any fretwork should be performed by a technician who has specific experience with bar frets.

A certain famous instrument dealer reportedly disparaged Lyon & Healys as being "for little old ladies in mandolin orchestras." While it's true that they are particularly sought after by classical players, they can be used in many other styles of music. Folk/old-time guitarist Norman Blake famously used a Style B for years on occasions when he played the mandolin. One doesn't see them in bluegrass much, but just about any other genre could be fair game.

Get some new light-gauge strings for it — they sound especially nice with flatwounds — have it checked out by a repair tech and let your son start playing it. He'll never need another mandolin. (He may desire another mandolin, but he won't need one.)

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. are you saying that it's of such a quality that it should be worth more, but because it is older and less desirable, it's worth less?

The mandolin market has it's favorites and although these are sought after by classical players they do not amount to a major portion of the mandolin buying public. The mandolin buying public is not huge by any means but they do have their preferred makes and models and unfortunately this isn't one of them.

[mrmando]

The label and the stairstep headstock match the ones pictured in Hubert's book for the earliest group of Style C's, supporting the idea that this is most likely from 1917, the year the carved line of mandolins was introduced.

1. Is there a patent date stamp on the pickguard?

2. If you slide off the tailpiece cover, there should be another patent date stamp on the tailpiece base. If this is a 1917 instrument, the stamp should say PAT APL'D FOR.

3. There appear to be two top cracks underneath the pickguard. These should be inspected and repaired, if necessary, by a repair tech. Once repaired, the mandolin should be fully playable, but the cracks will reduce the value somewhat.

[solojer123]

1. Is there a patent date stamp on the pickguard?

The pick guard says PAT.APL'D FOR, just like the tailpiece cover.

2. If you slide off the tailpiece cover, there should be another patent date stamp on the tailpiece base. If this is a 1917 instrument, the stamp should say PAT APL'D FOR.

Yup! That's exactly what is marked.

3. There appear to be two top cracks underneath the pickguard. These should be inspected and repaired, if necessary, by a repair tech. Once repaired, the mandolin should be fully playable, but the cracks will reduce the value somewhat.

Thanks for pointing this out -- I hadn't noticed it!

[rcc56]

In particular, Lyon & Healy mandolins have what are called "bar frets," of a different type than Gibson mandolins and indeed most other fretted instruments. This will have to be taken into consideration if the idea of using larger fretwire comes up. Any fretwork should be performed by a technician who has specific experience with bar frets.

This is not accurate. I have refretted half a dozen of these instruments at least. While it is true that many of the old Lyon & Healy bowlbacks had bar frets, the carved top models did not.

[mrmando]

This is not accurate. I have refretted half a dozen of these instruments at least. While it is true that many of the old Lyon & Healy bowlbacks had bar frets, the carved top models did not.

Hm. Well, I had a Style B refretted by a well-respected luthier and that's what she told me. I guess that instrument was unusual in that regard.

[mrmando]

The tailpiece patent was granted April 15, 1919, so your tailpiece was made before that date.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1301059

The pickguard patent was granted Nov. 12, 1918, so your pickguard was made before that date.
https://patents.google.com/patent/USD52661S

There isn't a reliable list of Lyon & Healy mandolin dates by serial number, so we have to rely on details like these to establish an approximate year of manufacture. It's usually possible to get within a year or two. All signs continue to point toward 1917.

[Jim Garber]

For historical purposes:

[rcc56]

Hm. Well, I had a Style B refretted by a well-respected luthier and that's what she told me. I guess that instrument was unusual in that regard.

I suppose it is possible that they might have used bar frets on the earliest models. The oldest one I have seen was somewhere around #45 or so. But I don't recall bar frets on that one either.

[Timbofood]

I don't play -- my eldest son is much more musically inclined, and has expressed interest in learning (since this came into our possession).

Very cool, he will have a fine instrument to learn on, surely better than the one I did.

I would get thee to someone with experience in the care and. Feeding of fine lad instruments and have them look it over. Where are you? City, state? See the luthier before getting caught up in what strings to buy and all that sort of thing. Your location will elicit some recommendations as to qualified vintage instrument repair folks.
Most “big box” music stores won’t have a clue as to what you have there and will not treat it with the respect it is due!
But, that’s just my opinion.
I’d love to see that little gem one day!

[Bob A]

This is not accurate. I have refretted half a dozen of these instruments at least. While it is true that many of the old Lyon & Healy bowlbacks had bar frets, the carved top models did not.

This stimulated me to take a look at mine. I confess I can't tell the kind of fret, as the fretboard binding hides what might be the tang. I bow to superior experience and expertise.

Thanks for that bit of (obscured) knowledge.