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Thread: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

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    Default Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Hi there. I am a beginner, (7 months taking lessons), I'm having a fixed bridge installed and I was asked by the luthier whether I would be using flat wound or round wound strings. He said that different bridge styles are required for flat wound vs. round wound. I can't seem to find any information other than the differences in the wind of the strings, the tones and the use of both types related to the music style played. Can anyone of you good people explain this further? Thank you.

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    Registered User mtucker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by vintelemon View Post
    He said that different bridge styles are required for flat wound vs. round wound.
    My gut is perhaps you should find a different set-up guy instead of a different bridge...but i've been wrong before..
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    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    I’d be interested in the why of that. I have been back and forth from round wound to flat wound on both mandolins and as long as the slots fit the string gauges everything works as it should. Naturally skeptic, I’d want a detailed explanation of the different bridge styles. My bet is that you’re dealing with the wrong luthier.
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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Can't the luthier explain himself? I'd like to hear him talk his way through this one myself.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Unless this luthier has a tendency to cut his slots too shallow (ideally, the depth should be about one string radius), then I don't quite understand where he's going with this question. But here's a possibility. Maybe he really meant to get information from you about your preferred choice of string GAUGES, so he could set the individual slot depths properly? But instead of asking for these actual numbers, which you might not have known, he simply asked if you used flatwound or roundwound, in order to guesstimate the outer diameters of your string set?

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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    ??????

    I've been working on instruments for decades, and this is the first time of heard of anything like that. In short, the answer is that the shape of the bridge top shouldn't be any different whether the instrument is strung with round or flatwound strings.

    It could be argued that bridge top compensation can be fine-tuned to fit the gauge of strings being used, and for the individual characteristics of the mandolin.

    A lot of saddles have been made over the years with the 2nd string compensated too far back.

    But as far as your man's saying that a different style bridge is required for flatwound strings, all I can think of is that he might be thinking in terms of archtop guitars, which would require different bridge compensations depending on whether the player is using a wound 3rd string or a plain 3rd string.

    But that doesn't have anything to do with mandolins . . .

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    The only thing I can think of related to this is that SOME brands of flatwound strings (TI) use a wound 2nd string and there might be a tiny difference in intonation for that string that could be compensated differently with the saddle. Most folks don't bother and usually don't have a problem.
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    possibly a misinterpretation, and he meant that the different diameter of the strings requires different groove size. In practice, this is not really the case.

    He may have meant intonation. If he is customizing the compensation for the set of strings, this would hold true of any strings and not just flat vs round wound. Changing the gauge also require a change to the compensation.

    If he really did mean a different bridge and not just the slots or compensation, I agree with others, he may not be the guy for the job.
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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Wait a minute, back up a bit... you say you're having a fixed bridge installed? What kind of instrument is this? The vast majority of mandolin family instruments have floating (movable) bridges, not fixed ones.

    bratsche
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    Registered User Rodney Riley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Wait a minute, back up a bit... you say you're having a fixed bridge installed? What kind of instrument is this? The vast majority of mandolin family instruments have floating (movable) bridges, not fixed ones.

    bratsche
    That’s the first thing that bothered me too. Is this a new build or a Mandolin you’ve had for awhile? Army/Navy style new build, maybe a fixed bridge, but anything else, I wouldn’t have it done.

    I’d look for someone that knows mandolins. As has been mentioned here in the past, guitar techs have no idea how to work on mandolins. ( I know, not saying all guitar techs are bad, but you do have to be careful)

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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    I wonder if by "fixed bridge" the OP is actually meaning a non-adjustable one piece bridge.

    Also, I wonder if the OP is actually meaning a radiused bridge vs a flat bridge, assuming the mandolin in question may have a fingerboard with a negligably mild radius. It's possible that the OP is learning on a mandolin with a mildly radiused fingerboard and doesn't know about that yet.

    It would be nice to hear back from the OP to clarify some of these relatively important questions. A little terminology confusion can go a long way.

    Short of this kind of terminoligy question, it seems that none of us here -- including myself -- have heard of having a special bridge cut for round wound vs flat wound strings.
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    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philphool View Post
    The only thing I can think of related to this is that SOME brands of flatwound strings (TI) use a wound 2nd string and there might be a tiny difference in intonation for that string that could be compensated differently with the saddle. Most folks don't bother and usually don't have a problem.
    D'A Flattops have a wound 2nd course. They are very light gauge and do not require speical compensation. They also wear through the windings in a very short time -- at string changing time I routinely replace the new wound 2nd course with non-wound strings.
    -- Don

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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    I wondered about the term fixed bridge, but I assumed non adjustable. I find that string gauges and action have an effect on intonation and the saddle needs to reflect not only the gauge of string, but the action the player likes.
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    I find that string gauges and action have an effect on intonation and the saddle needs to reflect not only the gauge of string, but the action the player likes.
    Yes, it does. Fret height and how aggressively the player frets the instrument have an effect also.

    Unfortunately, many factory saddles do not leave sufficient wood surface for adjustment unless you shorten the saddle height, and that has an effect on the tone. And it takes quite a while to make a compensated saddle from scratch.

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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Wait a minute, back up a bit... you say you're having a fixed bridge installed?
    Wow I missed that! Why would someone do this?
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    funny....

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philphool View Post
    The only thing I can think of related to this is that SOME brands of flatwound strings (TI) use a wound 2nd string and there might be a tiny difference in intonation for that string that could be compensated differently with the saddle. Most folks don't bother and usually don't have a problem.
    Intonation on TI's is radically different to a regular set with a plain A string - basically the core on the A strings of the TI's is tiny (don't ask me what it is, but they break if you look at them the wrong way) so the A strings on TI's need to be further forward than the E's.

    With regard to the rest, I suspect miscommunication....

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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Wow I missed that! Why would someone do this?
    Mandolins have been around a fairly long while. If a fixed (attached) bridge was a good idea I would expect to see more of them by now.
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    [QUOTE=dhergert;1645867)It would be nice to hear back from the OP to clarify some of these relatively important questions. A little terminology confusion can go a long way..[/QUOTE]

    The Mandolin Café may have to bring in the OP and the luthier for questioning.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Something is not being expressed clearly. I’m leaning toward the one piece bridge being referred to as “fixed” but, that’s not my normal term for one.
    Then again, there are wieners and hotdogs so, what’s in a name?
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moss View Post
    Mandolins have been around a fairly long while. If a fixed (attached) bridge was a good idea I would expect to see more of them by now.
    I disagree. I think that certain sounds are outside the expectations of players, and so are perceivd as negative.

    Mandolin has numerous examples of a "sound" not being preferred because the players seek to occupy a sound space. To use just one sound space as an illustration, bluegrass players often argue against anything which adds high end and sustain to an instrument. An oval hole adds chime and sustain over F holes? Bad for bluegrass! A flat top adds chime and sustain over a carved top? Bad for bluegrass! A thinner, more flexible pick allows more of an instrument's high end to be heard, compared to a thick pick? Bad for bluegrass!

    A fixed bridge on a flat top adds both chime and sustain, as demonstrated by comparing an F-holed archtop guitar with floating bridge to a flat top fixed bridge guitar. A carbon fiber top adds even more high end and chime, which outrages the fans of "woody" tone. A suspended top (like on certain extremely high end Adamas guitars) adds more high end and sustain, compared to a fixed wood top? More outrage from the woody purists.

    But...

    In areas where people are wiilling to try womeing outside a fixed and limited idea of what an instrument should sound like, such instruemnts flourish. That's why people outside of bluegrass, as one example, are using mando-family instruments which revel in their sustain, high end and chime.

    There's nothing wrong with deciding that one only wants an instrument which is limited, but it seems a mistake to attribute a personal sound preference against certain construction types to it being a bad idea for everyone. The modern field of mando-family instruments outside of bluegrass, especially in Celtic and folk, is much more open to change, since it's not a matter of "Does it sound like Bill or his musical descendants? If not, I don't want it." That's why you see the fixed bridges emerging in those musics.
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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    I disagree.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    I think he thought about wound A strings on some flatwound sets. They require different compensation for best intonation. Can play OK with standard bridge but only if you ar enot picky or don't play above fret 7 on A course.
    Adrian

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    ...In areas where people are wiilling to try womeing outside a fixed and limited idea...
    I tried womeing a time or two; musta been in the wrong area for that...

    But seriously, yeah, you could want to have a fixed bridge installed on your mandolin, for an unspecified reason (Ovation/Applause mandolins have fixed pin bridges, after all).

    I would assume someone who wanted to have the floating bridge replaced with a fixed, glued bridge, would have experience with the instrument, and a clear idea of what the change would be, and why. That person wouldn't accept the "luthier's" statement that different bridges were needed for flat-wound and round-wound strings, which seems to make no sense to me -- what characteristics of the different string types would require different bridge styles?

    IMHO more info needed, and I hope the OP will chime in with more details.
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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    I've seen lots of people womeing on the Cafe:

    "Woe is me - I can't play a __ chord!"
    "Woe is me - I have MAS!"
    "Woe is me - my spouse/significant other doesn't understand my MAS!"
    "Woe is me - I lost my BlueChip!"
    "Woe is me - I can't do tremolo/memorize/improvise/etc."

    bratsche
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  28. #25
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatwound vs. Roundwound bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    I tried womeing a time or two; musta been in the wrong area for it...
    Maybe this will clear it up...

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22womeing...=1&t=h_&ia=web
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