Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Too Good To Be True?

  1. #1
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charlottesville Va
    Posts
    1,052
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

  2. #2
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Nice . . . just another $164,250, and it's MINE!

  3. #3
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    I think clearer pictures would be in order before trying to evaluate the condition of the instrument.
    Especially the top, the back of the neck, the area below the rear peg head veneer, the neck joint where the heel of the neck meets the back, and the associated seam between the back and sides. What I do see in those areas makes me want to have a closer inspection before forming an educated opinion about the mandolin.

    They want you to inspect it in-house and will not accept any returns. Therefore, it would be difficult to have an in-hand inspection by an expert to evaluate condition, authenticity, and structural stability before a sale was finalized.

    I would advise any buyer to inspect the neck to body joint at the back very carefully, inspect the integrity of the glue joints between the tone bars and the top with a light and a mirror, and try to figure out what all that gloss on the back of the neck in the first position is before arranging for payment.

    Remember, condition and originality are critically important in determining the value of signed F-5's. Especially now, since there are so many of them out there for sale.

    Hunting old instruments was a lot more fun in the '90's when they were much cheaper. Now, it has become nerve-wracking, especially on F-5's and pre-war Martins.
    Last edited by rcc56; Apr-01-2018 at 5:42pm.

  4. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  5. #4
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charlottesville Va
    Posts
    1,052

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeZito View Post
    Nice . . . just another $164,250, and it's MINE!
    Dang it. You're ahead of me. I'm still $164,950 short.
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

  6. #5
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    It is listed in the Archives.

    Looks like piles of case candy in there, too—maybe at least $25 worth.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	fb1trrevg9sbe5fn1mod.jpg 
Views:	123 
Size:	310.6 KB 
ID:	166405
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  7. The following members say thank you to Jim Garber for this post:


  8. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,322

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    I'd like to see it just for historical interest, but ...... too rich for my blood.

  9. #7
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Many of these Loars hang around at one dealer then end up (on consignment) at another. This one was listed on Reverb for 4 months but I bet it showed up at other places before. One I played maybe 3 years ago at one dealer is now at another. BTW I am not sure why this particular mandolin is "too good to be true."
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Apr-01-2018 at 10:07pm.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  10. #8
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    I'm not sure about the "too good to be true" either. It's in decent shape, but certainly not pristine. It is not being offered for a below market price. There are others available right now that are in nicer condition.

    If "unmolested" means that it has never had any repairs does not mean that it doesn't need any-- from what I can see it is at least somewhat likely that it does need some attention. And I am not satisfied with that picture of the back of the neck in the first position. The more that I look at it, the more that I wonder if some varnish or something has been slathered on there.

    There are 7 signed F-5's for sale in Nashville, 2 in New York, 3 in North Carolina, 3 in California, and one in Canada. That's 5% of the total production. A couple of others have fallen out of the market recently, but I do not know whether they were sold or simply withdrawn.

  11. #9
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    About 15 years ago I had a chance to buy a Loar, (F-2 or F-4, can't remember now), for 1/5th the price of this one. That price was too good to be true . . . because the mandolin sounded terrible and was almost unplayable.

  12. #10
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    No such thing as a Loar-signed F-2s or F-4s and I can’t imagine that one of those era would have cost $30,000+. You must mean an F-5 but probably from the 1930s or 40s.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Apr-02-2018 at 11:44am.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  13. #11

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeZito View Post
    About 15 years ago I had a chance to buy a Loar, (F-2 or F-4, can't remember now), for 1/5th the price of this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    No such thing as a Loar-signed F-2s or F-4s and I can’t imagine that one of those era would have cost $30,000+.
    A 'Loar-Era' F-2 or F-4 maybe. As Mr. Garber indicated, a 'Loar-Signed' one would be a first.
    30K for the former would have been a pile of misspent money. 30k for the latter... probably a good investment!
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

  14. #12
    ===========
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Mystery, or ignorance?

    Unfortunately, my first Loar experience happened back in the VERY early days of my mandolin playing. Being a newbie to the whole world of mandolin, I wasn't really 'up' on mandolin subtleties, like make, model, rarity, collectablity, etc. However, from my years of guitar buying experience I knew Gibson, and I knew just enough about mandolins to know that Llyod Loar was a BIG name in collectable mandolins. When I got a call from the local music store saying that I might like to see their Loar, I rushed over; (the music store was across the street from my job . . . a VERY dangerous place to keep a music store!).

    To make a long story short - I would almost swear that the mandolin that I saw was an oval hole model, (I wasn't into ovals at the time, so I remember being disappointed that it wasn't an F-5) and I almost swear that I remember seeing that the label inside was signed by Lloyd Loar. The mandolin disappeared the day after I saw it, and since it was such a lousy instrument, I never inquired about it again.

    Perhaps it was a bad fake? A one-of-a-kind?

    The music store is now out of the stringed instrument business, so I will never know for sure.

    If only I could turn back time . . . .

  15. #13
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    I have never heard of a Loar signature on any instrument other than the F-5, H-5, K-5, and L-5. I don't know if the Griffith A-5 had a signed label. Style 5 banjos and tenor lutes did not.

    Replica Master Model labels were easily available until a few years ago. They were making those labels at least as far back as the early '80's.

  16. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,811

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Oval-hole mando with Loar label? Interesting.

    In the violin world, labels are faked all the time. In fact, odds are that the likelihood of the label correctly identifying the maker is pretty slim. The more money involved, the more wary the buyer ought to be.

  17. #15
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Statesville, NC
    Posts
    3,256

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    I have never heard of a Loar signature on any instrument other than the F-5, H-5, K-5, and L-5. I don't know if the Griffith A-5 had a signed label. Style 5 banjos and tenor lutes did not.

    .....
    Yes. It was signed.
    Phil

    “Sharps/Flats” “Accidentals”

  18. #16
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Mike, I think someone was scamming someone -- putting Loar's signature on an F-2/F-4 label to try to enhance the market price. Loar signed "Master Models," and not all of those. As far as current research goes, never an oval-hole mandolin.

    I have a "Master Model" tenor lute from the "Loar era," and the label's unsigned. I've seen many F-2's and F-4's, early 1920's and others, none with signed labels.

    There's a real mythology around Lloyd Loar and the "Loar era," apart from the evident design innovation and manufacturing quality that the instruments represent. A lot of time gets spent chasing down attributions and checking marketing claims. A certified Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5 goes now for what seems like a ridiculous amount of money -- to me, anyway. I leave others to debate whether a mandolin is worth as much as my house; clearly, things are "worth" what they can bring on the market, but I wonder what sense of proportion the market reflects.

    I watch the auto auction shows on cable sometimes, and see a single vehicle sell for more money than I will ever see in a lifetime. Is that Ferrari or Porsche "worth it?" To the buyer, yes it is. But we should all be aware that inflated prices induce counterfeiting, misleading claims, and other chicanery. Like the "signed Loar" F-2.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  19. #17
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charlottesville Va
    Posts
    1,052

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    A certified Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5 goes now for what seems like a ridiculous amount of money -- to me, anyway. I leave others to debate whether a mandolin is worth as much as my house; clearly, things are "worth" what they can bring on the market, but I wonder what sense of proportion the market reflects.

    I watch the auto auction shows on cable sometimes, and see a single vehicle sell for more money than I will ever see in a lifetime. Is that Ferrari or Porsche "worth it?" To the buyer, yes it is.
    Long ago I would watch the classic car shows when I was bored. It began to dawn on me that too many people have more money than sense. I reached the end of my tolerance when I saw a NART Ferrari auctioned for $27,000,000. Awesome car and rare as hen's teeth, but come on.

    The same goes for Loar mandolins. Does the cachet really merit over $100,000? I guess if you're falling over piles of cash, maybe so. But a lifetime of necessary economy is hard to overcome. Even if I hit the Powerball (I don't do lottery, so I probably won't), I don't think I could pay that kind of price for any instrument.
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

  20. The following members say thank you to Roger Moss for this post:


  21. #18

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Or, could it be that "money" no longer has any buying power? (versus the ole days when a dollar was a dollar, you young whippersnappers, you!)

  22. #19
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Charlottesville Va
    Posts
    1,052

    Default Re: Too Good To Be True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Or, could it be that "money" no longer has any buying power? (versus the ole days when a dollar was a dollar, you young whippersnappers, you!)
    I remember back when you could get a hot dog and a bottle of Pepsi for a quarter (and we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow barefoot to get there)...
    We are the music makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams

  23. The following members say thank you to Roger Moss for this post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •