I Purchased Martin Mandolin 2-30 ; Could it be a Fake? HELP

[stevemcpreston]

Hi,
Just bought a martin 2-30 Mandolin off of ebay... It arrived today.

I play with and work with a lot of vintage mandolins as a hobby. When opened this my initial impression was that it looked too good to be a 1939. No checking in the finish, and just overall did not have the many signs that indicate a vintage mandolin..

However, all the hardware and markings except for the bridge seem correct...

EXCEPT that the F Holes are unlike any of the Martin 2-30s, 2-20s, 2-15s I can find....
also the fit and finish around the face do not look as good as elsewhere on this mando.

Could it be a fake? Genuine with a replaced top? Some other explaination?
Any help would be really apreciated...
Steve

[billhay4]

Since the bridge in non original, is it possible this was re-topped at one time? with an overspray on re-finish?
Bill

[MikeEdgerton]

I can't imagine anyone faking one of those mandolins but I could see where someone might re-top one.

[MikeZito]

With the idea in mind that Martin mandolins are generally not particularly highly sought-after instruments, I can't imagine that somebody would have bothered to take an instrument that was similar in look and quality, and faked it as a Martin. I would tend to think that Bill was right . . . perhaps the top was damaged at some point, then re-topped and re-finished.

[stevemcpreston]

Since the bridge in non original, is it possible this was re-topped at one time? with an overspray on re-finish?
Bill

Looking at it that seems likely... but I paid $2800... What would re-topping and overspray do to the value?
Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

You could contact Martin and ask if they have any records of doing a repair on it. That's a healthy price to pay for one of those in my book. Unfortunately yours is the only one that was recently sold on eBay. There's no way to see where the actual prices of these are going. You have to look at the completed auctions not what people are asking for them.

I can see why you thought this was a good deal by the way. There are some really silly prices on these out there. I'm going to guess that they are trying to appeal to the guitar buying public.

[Bob Clark]

Either way, it sure is pretty. How does it sound?

[MikeZito]

I don't know what the actual selling price for these instruments really is, but I have seen a couple on the internet recently in the $4,500 range . . . which to me seems quite high for this model. If you won this at auction, then the $2,800 would seem legit - but last year I picked up a 1929 Martin Style 20 (supposedly Martin's 'best' mandolin) for under 2K. Obviously, in most cases, a re-top and re-fin would GREATLY reduce a selling price. It will be interesting to hear others chime in on this one because I am a big fan of the look of the 2-30 - but I have never had the opportunity to play one.

[MikeEdgerton]

This one is an outlier. The flip side of the coin is that if you can sell it you can eat good for a while.

I'll take it a step farther. I'm not sure the fingerboard is original on the OP's mandolin.

[William Smith]

Ok from what I see that is not an original top! The F holes are all wrong as is the sunburst! The burst on an original 2-30 from 36-1942 was very low production of 64 mandolins? I believe the originals are a way darker burst and also it should have way more body layered binding. Yours looks like a 2-20 style binding with a 2-30 fret board? The board, peg head, tailpiece cover is all right for a 2-30. But sorry to say top is wrong as is binding for a 2-30.

[MikeEdgerton]

Look at the end of the board on the one in my link. Unless that's an optical illusion they don't look the same.

[Jim Garber]

I love these anomalies. The only sensible thing I can figure is that this re-top was done way back in time and the luthier, who was evidently skilled, could not find an actual 2-30 or a photo of one to copy or else did not care. The f-holes are completely wrong. Of course, he or she could have contacted Martin and asked, I suppose. I would say then that it was before Longworth's book.

I believe these later f-hole Martins have the fatal flaw of warping and cracking near the tailpiece. I am not sure why that is tho the luthiers among us may know. Maybe the tailblock was designed strangely. I had a 2-15 from early 1940s that developed that problem. I know these Martins had a pretty high neck angle so they could use a higher bridge.

I'll take it a step farther. I'm not sure the fingerboard is original on the OP's mandolin.

Why do you say that? The fingerboard looks a lot closer to what is supposed to be compared with the top/f-holes. In the few pics I don't see anything too odd at least in that area. Maybe you saw that the diamond inlays on the fretboard were a little lopsided in the pics on the eBay posting?

[stevemcpreston]

Either way, it sure is pretty. How does it sound?

It sounds good. I have not put fresh strings on it yet so I'll judge better after that, but so far good. Neck straight and flat with just a tiny - maybe .01 or less releif - and about 1 3/16 at the nut. Frets have almost no wear, and are the thin squared off top look that seems appropriate to this age of instrument. I suspect it was re-fretted, but it was done well. Overall a great looking mando in great condition.

Based on what it sounds like with old strings I think it will sound great with new ones. Sound is not like my old Gibson oval hole... but what's the point of having multiple mandolins if they all sound the same?
Steve

[stevemcpreston]

You could contact Martin and ask if they have any records of doing a repair on it. That's a healthy price to pay for one of those in my book. Unfortunately yours is the only one that was recently sold on eBay. There's no way to see where the actual prices of these are going. You have to look at the completed auctions not what people are asking for them.

I can see why you thought this was a good deal by the way. There are some really silly prices on these out there. I'm going to guess that they are trying to appeal to the guitar buying public.

Yup - I tried to get a price fix before bidding, but could only find a couple of 2-20s that went for 2000 to 2500 about a year ago...

Fortunately for me the ebay listing specified it was all original... So I have leverage to return or negotiate.

(OK I'm an idiot for not catching the F hole difference - I was focused on the hardware... Knew the bridge was wrong but other than that...

Steve

[acinva]

I used to have one of these -- I think it was a 1937. I am attaching pictures in case that helps.

Alan

[William Smith]

Fret board looks like a 2-30, and now I look closer the binding looks right, just the top was either replaced and or F-holes made to look like a Gibson, the top finish is like what Martin used on the lower end models a bit later like the 2-15's from the late 40's-early 50's?
There is a real nice 2-30 on Reverb for 4500?

[stevemcpreston]

Obviously, in most cases, a re-top and re-fin would GREATLY reduce a selling price.

Any thoughts out there on how greatly it would reduce the selling price... Down to 2/3rds, 1/2, 1/4...
Just open to any ideas on the value with a replaced top (done well).

Thanks everyone for their input so far...
I have only had the Mandolin craze a few years now... and what can I say... It can be a vicious learning curve.
Steve

[Rob Norton]

I believe these later f-hole Martins have the fatal flaw of warping and cracking near the tailpiece. I am not sure why that is tho the luthiers among us may know. Maybe the tailblock was designed strangely. I had a 2-15 from early 1940s that developed that problem. I know these Martins had a pretty high neck angle so they could use a higher bridge.

I owned one of these some time ago, and it had the crack that Jim mentions in the top under the tailpiece, about an inch and a half in from the rim. I had Matt Umanov look at it, and he said nearly every 2-30 he had seen had a similar crack in the same place. The only way to fix it would have been to take the top off (I opted to sell it). So my guess is that this one had that crack as well, and the luthier who fixed it concluded it would be better to replace the top at that point. And, as noted, it seems like a very well done job, so, from a structural integrity/playability point of view, it may be net improvement.

They are gorgeous instruments.

[William Smith]

Yes learning can be a vicious cycle, Hey I've been there, I'm sure most have but won't admit it, I'd say if ya like the sound go with her! If not well always do your homework on anything vintage! You paid a tad high, I hate to say it but with a retop that mando would be in the well don't want to say since I know what you paid but if it was me I'd et my $ back!?!?

[rcc56]

Any thoughts out there on how greatly it would reduce the selling price... Down to 2/3rds, 1/2, 1/4...
Just open to any ideas on the value with a replaced top (done well).

A loose rule of thumb might be that re-topping an instrument would reduce the value to 40% to 60% of what an example in excellent original condition would be worth, assuming that the re-topped instrument is otherwise original and in good condition, and also depending upon the quality and accuracy of the replacement work. The non-original shape of the f-holes does not help the value of this one.

You would have to do some digging to find many comparison prices for a 2-30-- these mandolins were not made in large numbers. Lowell Levinger [Player's Vintage Instruments, a long established dealer] has one listed at $4500-- it is an old listing and may have been sold. I would not consider the price on the Jeannie West instrument to be a realistic fair market price.

I remember seeing both of the only two oval hole style 30's that were ever made go through Gruhn's some years ago. I played one of them, and it was a very good mandolin. They might have been asking something like $2500 or $3000 for it back then. I passed-- the price just seemed too high for a Martin mando at the time, no matter how rare and interesting it was. I remember that both of them sold very quickly, though.

Strange, to me the color of new top reminds me of mid '60's Gibson work, although I have no reason to believe the work was actually done by Gibson.

[LadysSolo]

Well, it seems that if the really original ones are going for $4500, and a retop reduces the value 40 - 60% and you paid $2800, then it seems like a fair price if it sounds good and you otherwise like it. You would, however, seem to have grounds if you want your money back. So do you like it even if not original at a seemingly fair price, or do you want an all original?

[rcc56]

I just looked up the original ebay listing, and the seller states "Mandolin and Case are original," which means that you would have a legitimate claim if you want to dispute the sale. Unfortunately, seller "does not accept returns," so that would mean going through a process with ebay and paypal.

Buying from ebay is a risky thing. Buying anything from anybody anywhere "no returns accepted" is riskier.

Checking out the math, 40% to 60% of $4500 would be $1800 to $2700.

[MikeEdgerton]

The buyer probably isn't worried about negative feedback either. He doesn't have any.

[Jim Garber]

Retail asking price may be $4500 but unless your were a Martin carved mandolin collector I doubt you would pay that. An image asearch got me to Banana's Holiday sale page (not sure when that was) with that same 1936 2-30 listed for $3600. FWIW the 2018 Vintage Guitar Price Guide has the Martin 2-30 at $2,200-3,000 in excellent condition.

These are not seriously desirable mandolins and for $4500 you could get yourself a vintage Lyon & Healy A, or a nice Gibson F-2 or if you are lucky an F-4.

As for the OP: my advice is if you love it, keep it and enjoy it. However, if you are not sure and think you might want to move onto something different, then see about returning it. You have grounds for doing so on eBay:

Seller does not offer returns. You are covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee if you received an item that is not as described in the listing.

BTW the reason I bought that 2-15 mentioned above was that the mandolin in question had a tailpiece that belonged to a Lyon & Healy and the seller would not sell it to me without the mandolin. I had the Martin for about a year but never really liked the sound.

[rcc56]

Apparently, then, Banana [Lowell Levinger] has since sold the 2-30, probably for $3600 or less. The $4500 price is from an old gbase listing that has not been deleted, and the main Player's Vintage website says "We are fresh out of Martin mandolins at this time. Sorry."

Yes, if you don't absolutely love the mandolin, it would seem to be a good idea to go through the return process. Is its current market value what you paid for it?? My opinion would be no.

And if the finish on the mandolin has been redone [which I don't think we can ascertain from the pictures], that also significantly reduces the market value, even if the work was masterfully done.

But we haven't played the mandolin. With a well made but non-original top, it might sound better than it did when it left the factory.

If you need documentation for the non-originality of the top, any of the major vintage dealers can write an evaluation of the authenticity of the instrument using the same photos you posted above. They will be sufficient enough to verify that the top does not appear to be Martin factory work.