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Thread: Scales.

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    Exclamation Scales.

    I’ve been playing mandolin a long time and never really bothered with scales. Sure, I know some but just never play them. I have always gone straight to the tunes.

    The other night I started with scales for some reason. Did that a while and actually enjoyed it. When I moved on to the same tunes I tend to play over and over again, I was amazed at how I flew through them and how smooth it all was.

    So they obviously work! Anyone else had a similar experience?
    ...

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    Default Re: Scales.

    I think one of the purposes of playing scales is the brain does not have to process a lot of musical or other information - it is a just a musically predictable and physically fairly memorable pattern - so the brain can focus instead on other aspects like tone, fluidity, speed etc. and left or right hand techniques to vary those attributes. You might be doing one or more of those things deliberately but stuff is happening subconsciously whether you like it or not. So you may well be surprised you have freed up your playing on some level when you go back to your usual tunes.
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    Default Re: Scales.

    I think it helps me 'loosen up' if I start with some scales. I generally run up and down two octaves if I can do it in first position. Usually do G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G. Nothing fancier although I probably ought to. I enjoy it too. You'll notice that I don't do the really yucky ones.
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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    I’ve been playing mandolin a long time and never really bothered with scales.
    Why did it take you so long to work on such a basic bit of musicianship?

    Seriously, learning ALL your major scales, all 12 (or 15 depending how you count) is a must in my Italian/jazz/classical/klezmer/choro world. Then learn the minors scales and other modes.

    It actually sounds odd to me that you waited that long to work on scales. No offense intended. But it seems common among "Americana" "roots" , etc. mandolin pickers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HonketyHank View Post
    I think it helps me 'loosen up' if I start with some scales. I generally run up and down two octaves if I can do it in first position. Usually do G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G. Nothing fancier although I probably ought to. I enjoy it too. You'll notice that I don't do the really yucky ones.
    Hey, you got Bb at least.

    The yucky ones are great fun...try 3 octaves, too.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    David, no offense taken, different strokes. I don’t read music, don’t understand theory, or much of anything technical. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years and don’t know any guitar scales, just lots of chords and songs, and memorized “patterns” on the FB in certain keys to play lead. I’ve just always played by ear and for fun, but have surely shortchanged myself in many ways. On mandolin I play tunes mostly by ear, but learned some scales early on. I just found them boring so I just focused on tunes.
    ...

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  9. #6

    Default Re: Scales.

    Practicing scales never seemed to help me much. Practicing USING scales has.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    David, no offense taken, different strokes. I don’t read music, don’t understand theory, or much of anything technical. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years and don’t know any guitar scales, just lots of chords and songs, and memorized “patterns” on the FB in certain keys to play lead. I’ve just always played by ear and for fun, but have surely shortchanged myself in many ways. On mandolin I play tunes mostly by ear, but learned some scales early on. I just found them boring so I just focused on tunes.
    I too have never practiced scales. I play by ear also and over the years have learned a little theory very simplistic stuff. But one thing I've discovered is that the "patterns" I've learned are based on or are a part of scales. These patterns would have been easier to "find" if I had a better knowledge of scales. I never had teacher per say, just my father who was the best by ear musician I have ever know. He knew no theory, no real reason for how he played something except that was what he heard in his head, and HD could play any thing with strings that he could pick up, any style, and sound professional playing. I wish I was half the musician. Anyway my comment, before I got off on that, is that you will use scales even if you don't realize it.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Anyway my comment, before I got off on that, is that you will use scales even if you don't realize it.
    Absolutely. I know I’m playing scales or bits of them on guitar: I just don’t know what they are called. I figured out a bunch of “shapes” early on with guitar (and mandolin) and later found out they were chords. Totally backwards from most people I realize, but just how it happened for me.
    ...

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    David, no offense taken, different strokes. I don’t read music, don’t understand theory, or much of anything technical. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years and don’t know any guitar scales, just lots of chords and songs, and memorized “patterns” on the FB in certain keys to play lead. I’ve just always played by ear and for fun, but have surely shortchanged myself in many ways. On mandolin I play tunes mostly by ear, but learned some scales early on. I just found them boring so I just focused on tunes.
    Ain't nothin' wrong with fun

    It depends on your goals.

    What I have seen are many players that learn tunes - and get stuck on certain tunes because of a technical issue that scale practice would have solved.

    Scales themselves are boring, but once you learn them applying them to music (tunes) becomes great fun.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Fun has really been my only goal for a long time now. My mandolin (and guitar) are a break from the drudgery of life. But I realize that discipline is the price of freedom, and a bit more discipline would only ever open up more opportunities with music. I see your point about getting stuck on certain tunes because the shapes and patterns have becom familiar. I’ve done this myself. I’m going to throw in some more scales and see what doors open up.
    ...

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Fun has really been my only goal for a long time now. My mandolin (and guitar) are a break from the drudgery of life. But I realize that discipline is the price of freedom, and a bit more discipline would only ever open up more opportunities with music. I see your point about getting stuck on certain tunes because the shapes and patterns have becom familiar. I’ve done this myself. I’m going to throw in some more scales and see what doors open up.
    and please, keep using music as a source of relaxation and pleasure.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    I’ve only been playing mandolin for about 6 months, but I’ve been playing fiddle (poorly) for about 11 years. A few years into my fiddle learning, I bought Gordon Stobbe’s Fiddler’s Red Book of Scales and Arpeggios (http://www.fiddlebooks.com/books.html) on the recommendation from another fiddler. I worked with it a bit, but then dropped it, possibly out of frustration because I hadn’t yet developed my fingers or ears well enough, and couldn’t bear to listen to my poorly intoned scales. I recently picked the book back up and worked on it with my fiddle, and got hooked. I can’t believe how quickly it improved both my intonation (by playing along with the recorded exercises) and ability to pick up tunes (by getting the arpeggio patterns under my fingers). For years, I’d been afraid of the key of C, but after spending about 2 days working the C scale and arpeggio exercises from that book I tried out two of my favorite C tunes from Chirps Smith (Down in Little Egypt and California Waltz). They practically rolled right off my fingers! California Waltz was especially enlightening because it’s built almost entirely off of C arpeggios. Now I’m really excited to learn C tunes. I even ventured into the key of F(!) to learn an F tune on the mandolin that a friend introduced my to this summer (https://youtu.be/VweMZusa1S4). So, now my Red Book stays on my music stand and I work on it regularly with both my fiddle and mandolin. Wish I’d gotten into it years ago instead of putting it down.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    But I realize that discipline is the price of freedom.
    Needs to be engraved on the inside of my mandolin case.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    I have played scales all my musical life - which began around age 8 on the accordion - and find them an invaluable tool along with other aspects of music theory. That said I have given up trying to discuss the benefit of learning theory, notation, and practicing scales with others that don’t already. Until they have a breakthrough like you did it’s useless to try and explain the benefits.

    I regularly encounter people who - after playing Big Sandy River for them say - “gee, I really need to learn that” and I’ll say “oh it’s really just playing up and down the A scale”...blank stares, silence, then the inevitable comment...”well, I don’t know what an A scale is.”

    So glad you discovered the benefits and are enjoying it, I regularly practice scales, modes, arpeggios, etc and find it’s really helping me advance my improv skills.
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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by wormpicker View Post
    So, now my Red Book stays on my music stand and I work on it regularly with both my fiddle and mandolin. Wish I’d gotten into it years ago instead of putting it down.
    I should add that I’ve found practicing scales and arpeggios is even more valuable for my mando playing than for my fiddling because the mando stays tuned in standard G tuning, but I play a lot of tunes on my fiddle in cross-A or D tuning.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Scales are a musical tool.

    We learn to use other tools...a pen...a saw...a hammer...and not judge them

    But a lot of musicians judge scales - oh, I don't need to know them - but they are just a tool.

    In all fields of endeavor, the better you know how to use you tools to express yourself, the better your art is.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Needs to be engraved on the inside of my mandolin case.
    I believe I lifted that idea from Thomas Jefferson, a great fiddler himself (till he injured his wrist in Europe). The principle applies all over the place.
    ...

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    ...a bit more discipline would only ever open up more opportunities with music.
    Nothing wrong at all with playing music for fun only. Many folks do just that and never seriously work at improving.

    IF someone wants to seriously get better, they make sure they cover the most basic things. Getting a LOT better at those basics gives one the ability to play most things fluidly.
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    Default Re: Scales.

    I’m wondering what people actually think while they are doing these scales. I was amazed once when a fiddler told me he knew all of the notes on the fretboard and when he played a scale, he read the notes individually from paper and just played note for note. Maybe it’s something I need to learn to do. Up till now I’ve learned a combination of FFcP and aural tone training using apps -so that, for example, a sixth interval has a certain distance and direction on the fretboard, and I remember which notes form major or minor chords depending on where the note is in relation to the root -so I know where each note’s 3rds and 5ths are. And the 4,1,5 ‘bar’ is another reference I pass through while playing the scale. This seems to work ok, for me, as long as I don’t lose the root/tonic position or which finger I used to start on the root. Another one is scales while stopping to play the 3rds n 5ths doublestops of each note which I really enjoy (!) but need to do slower with a rhythm and no errors.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Jazzmando.com FFcP......just sayin'

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    Nothing wrong at all with playing music for fun only. Many folks do just that and never seriously work at improving.
    I don't want to make this thread an autobiography, but for me, things like learning to read music, understanding theory, doing scales, etc, etc, have always seemed like WORK and schoolroom drudgery, hence my avoiding it all. I've always seen music as something to do when I'm NOT working, so I have avoided the unpleasant parts and just played tunes that grab me (it is called PLAYING music after all). When I hear something I want to play, that's usually when I try and learn something new, and when I'll discover a new chord or pattern, etc. Such a casual approach is probably hard for some here to understand.

    My grandmother was a great classically-trained pianist. I'd been playing mandolin a while before she died and would sometimes bring it along during my visits to her. She could not understand how someone could "play music" without knowing anything about music. She couldn't even understand how someone could play without reading the notes off the page (much less how one could play without even knowing how to do that). I would make up tunes and play them for her. She couldn't understand that either. Her teacher never encouraged any kind of creativity, but to just play the pieces as written. The idea of "making up" music never occurred to my grandmother. She also told me that I have way more fun with music than she ever did. I'm not sure she knew it could be fun, or that it was allowed to be.
    ...

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    I don't want to make this thread an autobiography, but for me, things like learning to read music, understanding theory, doing scales, etc, etc, have always seemed like WORK and schoolroom drudgery, hence my avoiding it all.

    ........
    My grandmother was a great classically-trained pianist. I'd been playing mandolin a while before she died and would sometimes bring it along during my visits to her. She could not understand how someone could "play music" without knowing anything about music. She couldn't even understand how someone could play without reading the notes off the page.
    Wow, both sides....the pianist trained not to play by ear, of which many were for generations, and the ear-only player.

    I guess I understand how folks could consider learning to read music, understanding theory, doing scales, etc., as "work" - because it is.

    But I always liked learning about my instrument, it never seemed like "work" to practice - but I had goals of playing professionally.

    Honestly, though, if I had to choose to play only by notes on paper or only by ear, I'd choose ear, since that's where music is, an aural art.

    But I like being able to do both - play by ear and read notes.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    I played tunes for decades, then I started playing with someone who wanted me to play leads. That meant improvising so I needed to learn scales. Then I needed to learn how to use the scales in the real world of music. Once started I would spend hours playing and learning. Now when I play with this same person many years later it is no problem. We play in Bm a lot but also F#m and C#m besides the normal keys. Scales can relate to patterns that can be moved and minor scales, while I use them, can also be played out of the relative major, or really backwards. Em leads can be played out of G major, etc. It open up a new world of playing and when learning tunes makes it easier. As bigskygirl says "the tune runs on the A scale" those are much easier to learn almost instantly when you know your scales.
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    Default Re: Scales.

    Starting out, scales seemed tedious because I had no idea how to apply them. They were finger exercises.
    As I begin to want to improvise, they finally made sense, along with ‘knowing the fretboard’
    Too often we miss the ‘why’ until we need it then we wish we’d been doing it all along.

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    Default Re: Scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    I don't want to make this thread an autobiography, but for me, things like learning to read music, understanding theory, doing scales, etc, etc, have always seemed like WORK and schoolroom drudgery, hence my avoiding it all. I've always seen music as something to do when I'm NOT working, so I have avoided the unpleasant parts and just played tunes that grab me (it is called PLAYING music after all). When I hear something I want to play, that's usually when I try and learn something new, and when I'll discover a new chord or pattern, etc. Such a casual approach is probably hard for some here to understand.

    My grandmother was a great classically-trained pianist. I'd been playing mandolin a while before she died and would sometimes bring it along during my visits to her. She could not understand how someone could "play music" without knowing anything about music. She couldn't even understand how someone could play without reading the notes off the page (much less how one could play without even knowing how to do that). I would make up tunes and play them for her. She couldn't understand that either. Her teacher never encouraged any kind of creativity, but to just play the pieces as written. The idea of "making up" music never occurred to my grandmother. She also told me that I have way more fun with music than she ever did. I'm not sure she knew it could be fun, or that it was allowed to be.
    Learning music theory is work just like anything else. It takes time and effort and helps advance your knowledge. It’s certainly not a requirement and there is nothing wrong with not doing it and just playing and having fun.

    I was at a camp with Evan Marshall a few years ago and he discussed practicing scales and such...I was pretty proud of myself on my practice of scales, chord tones, etc for about 5 minutes a day or so until he showed me the list of things he does daily...it went on and on and on and he’s no slouch on the mando. Now I realize he’s a pro who plays pretty much all day every day but umm, yeah...he’s a pro who plays pretty much all day every day and part of that is practicing scales.
    Northfield F5M #268, AT02 #7

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