Is there a personal limitation for speed?

[PhilGox]

Hello,

My question of the day is:
Is there a limitation, physical or mental for each player that prevent him to reach his max tempo even if he works hard?

I explain:
I'm begining to learn Irish tunes that are supposed to be played at about 120 bpm.
I hardly can reach 100 bpm but above this limit I feel it's completely impossible for me to play it.
I'm already aware of all good advices often given in this forum and I apply them.
I learn the tune slowly paying attention to picking, fretting, then I increase tempo step by step, slow it again etc...
My confortable tempo increased but never goes above 100bpm.

I'm a calm person.
I use to speak and move quite slowly.
Even if I practiced running 8 hours per day I know I will never win the olympic games or any cup.
I practice music for a long time but I have never been confortable with very fast tempo.
(But I never tryed hard before because I didn't need speed for the styles I used to play.)

As it's the first time I really work fast tunes I'm wondering between two possibilities:


1- Is 100 bpm for Irish tunes my own physical (or brain) limitation?
In this case I will never be able to play it at 120 bpm even if I work hard.
Only some rare geniuses can be so easy at this speed.
And it would be better for me to know this before struggling to try.

2- Every player first says "It's impossible" but can reach the speed with practice and years?
In this case it's worth continue my efforts untill it comes, even if it takes a long time.
I don't want to be a very fast player to win a cup, but I'd really like to be able one day to play those tunes at about the same speed I hear on recordings.

Did you experienced the same in your learning, with or without succes?
Which of the two possibilities seems to be right or wrong for you?
I precise I'm not just looking for kind encouragements.
(I already know people here are very nice )
But I would need objective answers to my questionning to help me know the truth, please.

Thanks in advance and have a good day

[Baron Collins-Hill]

I and everyone I know has gone through this, and the answer I always see is #2. I play at 120bpm a lot because I play for contra dances and that is the speed that is natural to dance at. I used to have a really hard time keeping up, but now I can do it without struggling at all. That said, I max out at around 130, because I never practice (and don't have much need for) playing faster than that. If I worked at it though, I am positive I could push through that barrier as well.

On the other hand, if I am playing tunes for fun with friends or on my own, I often would rather play them around 100bpm, it's a more pleasing speed to me if there is no dancing involved. More space for the melody to breathe in my opinion.

All in all, you can totally get there, so keep at it. It's definitely a long term goal and short term progress will be harder to see.

Thanks,
Baron

[CES]

Everyone's different, and we all probably do have a speed ceiling, just as we do with running speeds. Most people can improve upon them to a point, but if your natural ability is to run a 15 second hundred meters, odds aren't likely that you'll drop that time to world class sub 10 second speed. Maybe you improve to 12 or 13 seconds with technique and conditioning, but the natural ability has to be there to reach a "world class" level.

That said, I totally agree that you should keep working on getting your speed up to 120 bpm for the music you're working on. I suspect that's an attainable goal for you, though it may not happen as quickly as you would like!

[DavidKOS]

I'll take a different approach.

120BPM - not fast for a bebop player!

But - how fast is you tremolo?

Because if you do not have a good controlled tremolo you may not have the speed for fast playing - they are very connected skills in my opinion.


Just a thought.

[DavidKOS]

I max out at around 130, because I never practice (and don't have much need for) playing faster than that. If I worked at it though, I am positive I could push through that barrier as well.

So why not work it through?

"because I never practice (and don't have much need for) playing faster than that"

Several issues there.

Do you really not need to play faster?

Or is because you do not practice working on speed?

[pops1]

As David says if you can play a nice quick tremolo then you should be able to reach a faster tempo. I also find the better I know a tune and the less I have to think about it the faster, and easier it is to play. I don't have to concentrate on the tune so I can even add notes or change it an octave up. On some tunes I can play the tune and sing at the same time at a very quick tempo. I also play for dances and squares will go plat 120 bpm easily.

[DavidKOS]

I also find the better I know a tune and the less I have to think about it the faster, and easier it is to play. I don't have to concentrate on the tune so I can even add notes or change it an octave up.

So right - the better you know the material, the better you can play it.

[Jill McAuley]

As pops1 has mentioned, if you know the tune well that frees you up to not have to devote mental bandwidth to focusing on what the next note is etc., and reduces the possibility of hesitation due to being unsure of the next note.

The other thing that helps with speed is economy of motion in both the left and right hand - any unnecessary movement between pick strokes will rob you of speed. Similarly, if your left hand fingers are coming too high off the fretboard between notes that give you more distance to travel to get your finger down again for the next note and that robs you of speed.

[Sevelos]

What triggered my attention were the words "Irish Music".
If you speak about jigs and you pick D-U-D D-U-D, try picking D-U-D U-D-U instead (Down-Up-Down-Up-Down-Up etc.)
You'll notice that you can play considerably faster this way as you don't waste time after each third eight-note on coming back up with the pick.
You'll lose a bit of "phrasing", but that's really not serious.

[doubleR]

I appreciate the running comparison. I've been running for 3 years, and I've found that my running progress has changed over time. The first year, my 5k times would drop by minutes every race. The next year, my progress was more gradual. Now it takes the same amount of work to shave off 30 seconds as I used to put in to shave off 3 minutes. That doesn't mean I'm at my physical limit with running. It just means that the faster I get, the slower my progress will come.

Back to mando, I've only been playing for a year, so I think I'm still enjoying my "beginner gains", but I suspect that the same thing will happen. Progress in speed and accuracy will continue, but the better I get, the slower the progress will come. All that to say, I seriously doubt you're at your limit regarding speed, but it may take a lot more time to go from 100 to 120bpm than it did to go from 80 to 100bpm.

[foldedpath]

We all have our limits, especially as we get older, but I think playing Irish traditional tunes at common session tempos should be within everyone's reach, with enough effort put into practice.

The first question I have is about that need for 120 bpm for Irish tunes (assuming we're counting reels as 2/2). That's pretty fast. I aim for somewhere around 112 bpm for reels, and somewhat slower for jigs, hornpipes and other dances. Your local sessions might be that fast, but most reels in my area don't go much faster than 112 bpm.

Here's a good example of a pub session. Note that Martin Hayes is playing here, not in his signature style but in a typical pub format. I count this as somewhere around 110-111 bpm:




I try to keep that set of reels under my fingers, because a local fiddler friend enjoys playing it. It's challenging enough on mandolin to sneak some triplet ornaments into the first tune, and then handle the quick moves on the E strings on the B part of the second tune at this tempo. I've been playing mandolin for 10 years with 30+ years of guitar behind that, and this is about my personal speed limit for playing with a good rhythm pulse and ornaments here and there. If a local session hits 120 bpm on an Irish or Scottish reel, I can hang in there, but it's not exactly fun.

So my suggestion is to aim for 110-112 bpm first, and don't think too much about hitting 120 until you're comfortable at 110-112 bpm. Never lose track of the rhythm pulse, because this is dance music and should get your feet moving!

[ajh]

I had come across a similar discussion years ago regarding everyone having a built in "twitch" factor. I hit mine years ago and it took me a bit to realize that you can go faster if you really work at it....but I quit when I found going faster for the sake of going faster gave me absolutely no pleasure. Probably why I don't really care for tremelo except in rare places when I am backing a singer and it fits. My natural pace is much slower....think "Walking Boss" or "FOD" by Garcia Grisman. Different strokes....

Or as Ghandi put it..."There is more to life than increasing your speed".

This getting old thing does make you a bit grumpy. And make you say "why?".

[ajh]

I had come across a similar discussion years ago regarding everyone having a built in "twitch" factor. I hit mine years ago and it took me a bit to realize that you can go faster if you really work at it....but I quit when I found going faster for the sake of going faster gave me absolutely no pleasure. Probably why I don't really care for tremelo except in rare places when I am backing a singer and it fits. My natural pace is much slower....think "Walking Boss" or "FOD" by Garcia Grisman. Different strokes....

Or as Ghandi put it..."There is more to life than increasing your speed".
This getting old thing does make you a bit grumpy. And make you say "why?".


And then "folded path" posted that one at the same time............great stuff. Thanks!

[AlanN]

Butch Baldassari:

"There are plenty of guys who pick faster than me."

[MikeEdgerton]

I will never be able to play like Chris Thile but sadly, someday he will probably pick more like me than him. He'll most likely be very very old when this happens.

[T.D.Nydn]

"Speed is fine,but accuracy is everything"...Wyatt Earp...

[Mandoplumb]

Speed is 90% mental in my opinion. All these recommendation are great after you overcome the mental issue. Quit thinking about all the" proper" techniques and just play the fastest you can, not worrying about mistakes, accurate noting, pick direction,etc until you get it in your mind that YOU can play as fast as the next man. As long as you hunt for excuses that you can't you will be right you can't. I'm not say to do this your whole practice time, work on the proper techniques on songs that speed is not a problem, but when you work on speed concentrate on speed alone until you overcome the mental block.

[Bertram Henze]

My vote goes to #2 option, too. Speed is a collateral benefit of control, not a goal in itself. Control brings relaxation, and there can be no speed tensed-up.

OTOH, 120 seems quite fast for reels in my book, too (OK for jigs, but that is only 3 notes per beat, not 4). But when they run away on me I am not trying to frantically pick every note, just faster; instead, I start dropping unimportant notes (try to practise such an "emergency version" of each tune as you learn it, because practise it you must before you can do that). It works and it does have to, because I am playing sessions with this man.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

So why not work it through?

"because I never practice (and don't have much need for) playing faster than that"

Several issues there.

Do you really not need to play faster?

Or is because you do not practice working on speed?

I have lots of thoughts on this, I apologize if I start to ramble.

In the music scenes I play in (contra dance, ITM, old time, Swedish), no one tends to push things past 120. After that, the dancers suffer (objectively) and the music suffers (in my opinion). On the long list of things I want to practice, pushing past a speed that never gets played is right near the bottom.

Could I push through my current speed barrier? Yes. If the century old traditions of tempo that affect the music I play somehow get upended and 140 becomes the new thing (not going to happen), I will rise to the challenge because my job depends on it.

Occasionally I am in a session where someone pushes things past the 120 mark, but it does one of three things every time.

1) It showcases the fact that the musician who set the tempo is playing faster than they can really handle, and the quality of the music suffers.

2) If the musician who started the fast set can handle it, they immediately exclude anyone in the session that can't keep up (usually most people), and it creates unneeded showmanship or a performance atmosphere, which is exactly what sessions aren't about.

3) It immediately becomes a solo performance, which is even less what a session is about.

Again, it depends on the music you play and your goals as a musician.

I don't practice things I don't use to create art. To me that's not fun, and music is about having fun and creating art and community.

If I had an infinite amount of time to practice, I'd work on all the things I wanted to, but life is short and time is finite. There comes a point in playing fast where you will be able to play faster than anyone else, and at that point you could still try to push yourself faster, but to what end? At that point you have no one to play at the speeds you have already attained. At that point I am going to focus on other things. Learn more tunes, learn a new instrument, become a better listener, be a better accompanist, get a better tone, start a new band, try out some cool cross tunings, learn to play jazz, transcribe some solos. The list is endless and tailored to the player.

If you want to play trad tunes in a community or dance setting, learning to play at 140 isn't going to help you. If you want to play bebop at 140 in Eb, learning to play Cooley's Reel isn't going to help you. If you want to do both, you can, but some of the skills will not apply to the other.

Thanks,
Baron

[MikeEdgerton]

I think anyone that has played with other people for any length of time has experienced starting something too fast and has suffered the humiliation of not being able to keep up with the pace they have set. It's kind of like touching something hot. You get burned enough times and you figure it out. On the other hand, if I'm playing with someone that consistently plays things too fast I generally drift off and find another jam. That doesn't mean I don't admire people that keep a fire extinguisher around in case their strings get too hot.

[DavidKOS]

......


Again, it depends on the music you play and your goals as a musician.

......
If you want to play trad tunes in a community or dance setting, learning to play at 140 isn't going to help you. If you want to play bebop at 140 in Eb, learning to play Cooley's Reel isn't going to help you. If you want to do both, you can, but some of the skills will not apply to the other.

Thanks,
Baron

Well said, and respect for the dance, and dancer, is essential in all forms of dance music.

[Beanzy]

I tend to favour feel over speed. When I do want speed, it’s a bit like getting a powerboat to plane. I just need to push it up over the bow wave and suddenly everything gets easier & you burn less mental fuel too. I often find myself in those situations playing way faster than I’ve ever been inclined to practice at. If you go too fast things get more bumpy and you can lose some passengers overboard or capsize the whole tune. Too slow and the fun can go out of it unless you put some interesting scenic highlights in. Whatever else is going on, the right feel and spaces are vital to making it sound good, for me speed is a by product of having mastered the feel & made it my own. I never actually measure BPM for Irish tunes as I prefer to judge things by the mood at the time set against past experience.

[Jill McAuley]

Whenever I see advice suggesting to just play as fast as you can and not worry about mistakes or feel it makes me think of all the youtube clips I've seen of novice players doing just that, and rather than being impressed by how fast they're playing all I can think is "janey mack, that doesn't sound like a reel/jig/hornpipe at all..." Speed without feel is meaningless in my book - the great players are capable of marrying the two, not because they just practiced as fast as possible when they started out and added the feel and emphasis in later, but rather because they learnt to play with feel and emphasis from the get go - it's integral to the music, not a spice you put on top after the fact.

[Marc Katz]

I want to ask how long you've been at it. Also, how much have you focused on the mechanics of your pick hand and a relaxed and efficient picking motion.

I am around the 10 year mark and I am finding that my playing is still improving and that I'm always humbled by a lot of players and picking that I listen to. It's hard to compete with pro's who pick for hours every day since they were small.

[Dave Sheets]

I'm sure this has been said before somewhere, but really work on keeping the right arm and hand relaxed. Find a pick that stays in place with a loose grip, so you aren't squeezing very hard (Blue chips seem to do this well for me, and so does the fender processed horn pick, some folks like picks with holes in them). Once you tense up, or start squeezing hard, you can't move as fast.