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Thread: Black Cloud Over Gibson

  1. #101
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by JonZ View Post
    Regardless of what happens, buy instruments instead of brands and carry on.
    That this thread is still alive and thriving at 5 pages is a pretty strong indicator that brand matters for something.

    In my case, given a choice of equally good sounding and well made mandolins and given that the prices are at least close and that I can afford to choose what I want, Gibson is a name that I'd very strongly consider. That's partially because of the legacy and partially because of my general experience based comfort with brand. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with that.

    As has often been said in various threads here, if you want Gibson tone, buy Gibson. That doesn't mean there aren't other great mandolins out there, or that I'll never buy one from another builder. But it does point to a tone that is pretty unique.

    And that's why we care about what happens.
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  3. #102
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    I don't think that any mandolin player (or Banjo player) would dispute the collosal contribution made by Gibson in the design & production of those instruments. Sadly,that banjos seem to have vanished from the Gibson production line, the void being filled by other makes. Again,i see that as being very short sighted,as the name Gibson still carried huge kudos in the acoustic instrument world. Fortunately for Gibson,they still have a great builder running the show on the mandolin side of things. The mandolins being produced under the watchful eyes of Dave Harvey,appear to be some of the very finest that Gibson have ever produced - long may it continue to be so. As for their pricing,personally,i don't think that they're overly expensive by comparison with other makes - & of course they carry 'THE' name !!,
    Ivan
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  4. #103
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    A lot of people seem to have the fatalistic attitude that if Gibson goes, that will be the end of quality mandolins. While Gibson has certainly made monumental contributions, we have to remember that there are other really good mandolin luthiers out there. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but there are some who prefer the sound of others over Gibson. I have two Bend, Oregon-made Breedlove mandolins that I think sound better. Admittedly, it's a subjective assessment. I have an old Gibson F-4 that sounds good but I personally like the sound of the Breedloves better.

    When I went looking for an octave mandolin, I never considered Gibson. I know their selection is limited but it just never entered my mind. I chose one of those "really good" luthiers that I alluded to above. Eddie Blevins in Tennessee is building mine. Perusing and comparing the prices of available OMs, his price is very competitive and his quality is impeccable. (I'll be taking delivery in the next month of two.)

    Even though I have that Gibson and it (and everyone else's, too, I guess) is great quality, I realize there are many others who produce high quality, great sounding instruments at a more competitive price because part of the cost doesn't include the name.
    David Hopkins

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  5. #104
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    The name Gibson means something to most people and I really don't see why. Yes they are making great mandolins again and should be given credit for that, but in the 70's they were making garbage to the extent that there was a number of people that started making copies of Gibson's F5, making a better mandolin by far than Gibson was making at that time. With very few exceptions they all put Gibson on the peg head, why? Because you couldn't sell a mandolin then that didn't say Gibson. I never understood that, why would I want to make or buy a good or even great mandolin that had the name of a junk maker on it. Now if I was making or buying a POS and it had the name of a good mandolin on it I could see that.

  6. #105
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    ...As has often been said in various threads here, if you want Gibson tone, buy Gibson...
    And even though some may not realize it, the Cafe probably helps sell more mandolins accidentally for Gibson than Gibson sells because of its own advertising and that seems to be pretty much limited to a few endorsements. I can't remember the last time I saw a Gibson print ad or web ad for their mandolins.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  8. #106

    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    ...Even though I have that Gibson and it (and everyone else's, too, I guess) is great quality, I realize there are many others who produce high quality, great sounding instruments at a more competitive price because part of the cost doesn't include the name.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    The name Gibson means something to most people and I really don't see why. Yes they are making great mandolins again and should be given credit for that, but in the 70's they were making garbage to the extent that there was a number of people that started making copies of Gibson's F5, making a better mandolin by far than Gibson was making at that time. With very few exceptions they all put Gibson on the peg head, why? Because you couldn't sell a mandolin then that didn't say Gibson. I never understood that, why would I want to make or buy a good or even great mandolin that had the name of a junk maker on it. Now if I was making or buying a POS and it had the name of a good mandolin on it I could see that.
    I don't dispute what y'all say, but it does bring to mind another big-name company. I think there are a lot of parallels between Gibson and Harley Davidson.

    Both companies have been around for more than one hundred years, while others have come and gone.
    Both have had their periods of being at the 'top of the heap' in sales and brand recognition.
    Both have had periods of serious quality control issues.
    Both have (so far) managed to survive through times of poor executive management.
    Both have been (at times) the core example of the product they represent.
    Both have been massively copied/imitated.
    Both have been accused of being overpriced ("I can get one just as good or better for less money from another brand").
    Both have an extremely loyal, die-hard group of supporters/enthusiasts.
    Both have been the subject of the question to these loyalists..."Why?"
    And as the saying goes... If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

  9. #107
    Front Porch & Sweet Tea NursingDaBlues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    I don’t know why, but I feel like putting in another perspective.

    First, let me get this out of the way: at the risk of second guessing, I agree that Gibson’s leadership made some poor decisions.

    Now, on to my post.

    It’s been frequently mentioned that mandolin is a small niche market. I don’t know how small; I have no idea what annual sales figures are. Banjos may be a little larger or maybe have similar sales volume; don’t know and don’t want to speculate.

    This morning I went on a handful of Craigslist sites and just entered “Mandolin” and “Banjo.” I didn’t focus on brands. Denver Craigslist; 50 mandolins listed; 57 banjos. I went on New Orleans and Shreveport Craigslist; maybe 3 mandolins listed total; around 20 banjos. Atlanta Craigslist; 27 mandolin listings; 28 banjos. Nashville Craigslist; 60 mandolin listings; 56 banjos. I didn’t take the time to check the popular acoustic instrument stores in these locations to see what used mandolins or banjos were listed.
    I did look at Mandolin Café classifieds; 555 mandolin listings; 109 banjo listings. I did not take the time to check Banjo Hangout or guitar forums.

    Anyway, the listings are for one day. Can you imagine the annual numbers of non-duplicated listings in used mandolins and banjos -- across the US? Now, take it one step further and imagine the numbers of used instruments sold in a year.

    My point is that even in small niche markets such as mandolin, there appears to be a fairly sizeable used market out there. And unfortunately, manufacturers don’t make any money off used instruments (not even off parts or accessories, say, like automobiles).

    Yes, I get it. Not everybody can afford a Gibson. Not everybody can afford new. Not everybody can afford to own multiple mandolins, banjos, or guitars. Not everybody can afford to keep the instrument they currently own.

    However, keep this thought in mind: whenever you purchase or recommend a used anything, you’re denying a manufacturer a sale. It’s not like automobiles or some other item that’s reached a status where most households have at least one and so the used market doesn’t have nearly the impact. But in smaller markets, if the sales for new products aren’t there, it just isn’t economically feasible to continue production. So, if a Gibson or other manufacturer ceases production on banjos, or resonator instruments, or even mandolins, it may not be solely because of poor management decisions.

    I’m not suggesting that you should not buy or recommend the buying of a used anything. I’m just offering an additional point.

  10. #108

    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by NursingDaBlues View Post
    ...However, keep this thought in mind: whenever you purchase or recommend a used anything, you’re denying a manufacturer a sale.
    I don't buy that (excuse the unintended pun).

    What you say my be true in the literal sense at that immediate moment. However, the product changing hands stimulates the market. if the product is a good one, demand is created. The void will eventually be filled by a new product.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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  12. #109
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    I don't buy that (excuse the unintended pun).

    What you say my be true in the literal sense at that immediate moment. However, the product changing hands stimulates the market. if the product is a good one, demand is created. The void will eventually be filled by a new product.
    No matter when a musical instrument was made, if they are played they still will require strings, picks, tuners, perhaps a new case now and again, parts, service. Used instruments do generate fuel for the economy. You buy the instrument one time, the rest goes on for the life of the instrument.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by NursingDaBlues View Post
    However, keep this thought in mind: whenever you purchase or recommend a used anything, you’re denying a manufacturer a sale.
    That is the single most innovative justification for MAS I have heard. I absolutely love it.
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  16. #111
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    I don't buy that (excuse the unintended pun).

    What you say my be true in the literal sense at that immediate moment. However, the product changing hands stimulates the market. if the product is a good one, demand is created. The void will eventually be filled by a new product.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    No matter when a musical instrument was made, if they are played they still will require strings, picks, tuners, perhaps a new case now and again, parts, service. Used instruments do generate fuel for the economy. You buy the instrument one time, the rest goes on for the life of the instrument.
    How much of those aftermarket purchases (strings, picks, tuners, cases, et al) come from Gibson or from any other whole goods manufacturer? Once again, I don’t have figures to back this up, but anecdotally it appears that folks overwhelmingly purchase D’Addario, GHS, Elixer, Grover, Gotoh, Waverly, Gator, TKL, et al instead of instrument branded parts or accessories. On the surface, it looks as though acoustic instrument manufacturers depend on new instrument sales to support their existence.

    Products changing hands may stimulate a market. But a delayed new instrument sale does not satisfy immediate needs. Manufacturers rely on meeting quarterly, if not monthly, sales projections to satisfy lenders and/or stockholders. Sometimes, no matter how much nostalgic affection there may be for a product line, if there is not sufficient demand, if the product does not cover its share of the cost of operations, and if the product does not offer an adequate return on investment, then cessation of production must be considered.

    However, we all view thing differently. In my post I see one possible contributor; you see it quite differently. I can extend such differing points-of-view to what Gibson and other manufacturers go through; some manufacturers are successful, while others seemingly struggle. It’s all how we look at things and how we make decisions that affect our future.

    So I offer this: I may disagree with your response, but I respect your point of view.
    Last edited by NursingDaBlues; Apr-12-2018 at 10:39am. Reason: correct typo

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    In the end, after over 100 posts no one here has ponyed up to bail the place out so, if that model holds true, the joint is surely doomed.
    Now that the obvious has been thrown into the mix, the company is so much larger than simply a mandolin manufacturing facility with holdings worldwide involved with other interests. So, one can only wait and see how the rest of the suits want to either sort out an improvement in cash flow to maintain the name or allow it to be broken into its component parts. The doom and gloom about the company is premature, when the suits make their legal presentations then anyone wanting to buy should get on it but, if we are just worrying about a company, it’s silly. Worry about the employees, let the suits fry an egg!
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  19. #113
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by NursingDaBlues View Post

    However, keep this thought in mind: whenever you purchase or recommend a used anything, you’re denying a manufacturer a sale. It’s not like automobiles or some other item that’s reached a status where most households have at least one and so the used market doesn’t have nearly the impact. But in smaller markets, if the sales for new products aren’t there, it just isn’t economically feasible to continue production.
    That's an interesting perspective, and contains much truth.

    Another way to look at it is, if people don't buy used instruments, their value decreases. This has a parallel effect on new instruments. Why buy an expensive mandolin if it doesn't hold its value? By the same token, a thriving market for used/vintage instruments underscores the value of the new ones.

    I've owned literally dozens of stringed instruments over the decades. Only two were new; a Czech pawnshop-special bowlback in 1965, and a Gibson Hummingbird in 1968. The bowlback was almost worth the $30 I paid for it; the Gibson for $300, which accounting for inflation would translate into about 2K today.

    So-called vintage instruments I've bought, with an eye toward quality and desirability, have done much better in terms of appreciation. Since tastes are changing, and Baby Boomers are dying off, they may be worth less tomorrow than today, but high quality will always remain more desirable than an imitation, even if the "imitation" carries the same logo, by the "same" company.

    I'm a fan of older Gibson products, but I won't support a company just because they "did it right" 80 years ago. Get it right today, and your product will sell. Declines in quality result in declines of sales. What will happen over time is a corollary of Gresham's Law - bad money will drive out good money. In essence, quality instruments will become less attainable due to their increased price/desirablity, leaving the marketplace flooded with lesser goods.

  20. #114

    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Get it right today, and your product will sell. Declines in quality result in declines of sales.
    Gibson's problem today is not with instrument quality like it was in the 1970's. The problem today, like a lot of businesses, is due to financial shenanigans.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob A View Post
    Get it right today, and your product will sell. .
    Oh to live in a world where that were true. Where doing your job better was rewarded, where making the product better was all it takes.

    I think getting it right is necessary, but not sufficient. A gross analogy - very few people care how well you make your buggy whips. Those that care won't buy them if you don't get it right, but can you make a living selling to the 23 people that want your product?

    Some things sell on quality, some things sell on price, some things sell on service, some things sell on fashion and trendiness, some things sell because so and so uses the product. It all matters when at the end of the day you need to make enough money to make payroll.

    It would be too hard a job for me to do, managing a business like that. To many conflicting but important issues.
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  23. #116
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    I’m not convinced that the used market inhibts new sales, in fact I think it might be the reverse case;
    Without people buying used mandolins how would people fund their new top end mandolin?
    I know some are rolling in the green, but I see a lot who couldn’t justify the outlay if they weren’t trading up & thinning the herd first.
    I reckon used is the lubricant of a decent chunk of new sales.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    In the end, after over 100 posts no one here has ponyed up to bail the place out so, if that model holds true, the joint is surely doomed.
    Now that the obvious has been thrown into the mix, the company is so much larger than simply a mandolin manufacturing facility with holdings worldwide involved with other interests. So, one can only wait and see how the rest of the suits want to either sort out an improvement in cash flow to maintain the name or allow it to be broken into its component parts. The doom and gloom about the company is premature, when the suits make their legal presentations then anyone wanting to buy should get on it but, if we are just worrying about a company, it’s silly. Worry about the employees, let the suits fry an egg!
    I'll fix it. Everyone in this forum needs to send me $1,000. (Incidentally, that's non-refundable.) That'll give me $52,403,000, give or take a little. I'll work to buy the Gibson Brands organization. Then I'll 86 the pianos, home receivers and amplifiers and speakers. I'll put folks like Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, Sierra Hull, Bela Fleck and others on the board. That's all I've worked out so far. Just send the money. If it starts showing up, I'll come up with some more and keep you informed (if I have Internet access in Brazil).
    David Hopkins

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    Breedlove Legacy FF mandolin; Breedlove Quartz FF mandolin
    Gibson F-4 mandolin (1916); Blevins f-style Octave mandolin, 2018
    McCormick Oval Sound Hole "Reinhardt" Mandolin
    McCormick Solid Body F-Style Electric Mandolin; Slingerland Songster Guitar (c. 1939)

    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

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  27. #118
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    The difference between Harley Davidson and Gibson is that Harley Davidson suffers from archaic, overbloated, heavy, ill handling, poor braking, grossly overpriced machinery, where Gibson suffers from management failures not relayed to the product itself.. ie people would still like to buy (the best quality) Gibson mandolins, guitars, banjos etc.


    It is true that building substandard machinery that very few want (except for a very small select group who need to display or feign an image) is a failure of management. Unlike Harley Davidson, Gibson still has product that is viable to a rather wide audience.

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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    When you buy a Harley, do they still give you a free Honda for someone to drive behind you to pick up the parts that fall off?
    David Hopkins

    2001 Gibson F-5L mandolin
    Breedlove Legacy FF mandolin; Breedlove Quartz FF mandolin
    Gibson F-4 mandolin (1916); Blevins f-style Octave mandolin, 2018
    McCormick Oval Sound Hole "Reinhardt" Mandolin
    McCormick Solid Body F-Style Electric Mandolin; Slingerland Songster Guitar (c. 1939)

    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

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  30. #120

    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post
    The difference between Harley Davidson and Gibson is that Harley Davidson suffers from archaic, overbloated, heavy, ill handling, poor braking, grossly overpriced machinery, where Gibson suffers from management failures not relayed to the product itself.. ie people would still like to buy (the best quality) Gibson mandolins, guitars, banjos etc.


    It is true that building substandard machinery that very few want (except for a very small select group who need to display or feign an image) is a failure of management. Unlike Harley Davidson, Gibson still has product that is viable to a rather wide audience.
    Ahhh... This post takes me back to an earlier time. I had an ex-wife who used to get very emotional and hyperbolic at times. When presented with facts she disliked but could not effectively debate, she would often resort to insults and non sequiturs.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    This is gonna get out of hand. We better get back to Gibson.
    David Hopkins

    2001 Gibson F-5L mandolin
    Breedlove Legacy FF mandolin; Breedlove Quartz FF mandolin
    Gibson F-4 mandolin (1916); Blevins f-style Octave mandolin, 2018
    McCormick Oval Sound Hole "Reinhardt" Mandolin
    McCormick Solid Body F-Style Electric Mandolin; Slingerland Songster Guitar (c. 1939)

    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

  32. #122
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    As a division of a larger holding company are they handicapped by the demands of the larger company expectations of returns on investment?
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  34. #123
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    As a division of a larger holding company are they handicapped by the demands of the larger company expectations of returns on investment?
    I think so. Their rate of return on those areas other than acoustic instruments can't be much anymore.
    David Hopkins

    2001 Gibson F-5L mandolin
    Breedlove Legacy FF mandolin; Breedlove Quartz FF mandolin
    Gibson F-4 mandolin (1916); Blevins f-style Octave mandolin, 2018
    McCormick Oval Sound Hole "Reinhardt" Mandolin
    McCormick Solid Body F-Style Electric Mandolin; Slingerland Songster Guitar (c. 1939)

    The older I get, the less tolerant I am of political correctness, incompetence and stupidity.

  35. #124
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    ."..resort to insults and non sequiturs..."


    Proof, once again, folks don't care for factual information from 55 years experience with motorcycles to include working directly for a European manufacturer of some of the finest machinery ever produced. Add to that I was the co-founder of the Monterey Bay European Motorcycle Club in 1983. Yes, a hearty handclasp is in order.

    Add to that, Harley is on its lips and is feeling the effects of producing overpriced, substandard equipment very few want. Those are facts; not only facts but admitted by Harley Davidson.. which is why they are (once again) regrouping having failed at a recent attempt to modernize with smaller displacement bikes that fell flat.

    Gibson, by contrast, has been building (however sporadic) product that folks want. The failing of GIBSON is the head honcho who has only one goal in mind, his personal financial success.


    Perhaps Henry J will beg a federal bailout ?

  36. #125
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black Cloud Over Gibson

    Quote Originally Posted by DHopkins View Post
    I'll fix it. Everyone in this forum needs to send me $1,000. (Incidentally, that's non-refundable.) That'll give me $52,403,000, give or take a little. I'll work to buy the Gibson Brands organization. Then I'll 86 the pianos, home receivers and amplifiers and speakers. I'll put folks like Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, Sierra Hull, Bela Fleck and others on the board. That's all I've worked out so far. Just send the money. If it starts showing up, I'll come up with some more and keep you informed (if I have Internet access in Brazil).
    Hey, I’ve tried for years to have you all group fund my Halsey mandolin for birthdays, Christmas, etc. heck, that has not worked and that would have been less than $20 a piece!
    If you get the funding and buy, I want a job!
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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