Facing the cold hard truth

[roysboy]

From time to time I find myself fighting off a bit of discouragement which comes from being honest with myself about my relationship with the mandolin .

I've primarily been a professional guitarist most of my working musical life ( over 40 years ) with stints at different junctures as a drummer . I have never lacked confidence in or questioned my natural abilities or my commitment to these instruments. My progress on both not only to MY ear but in sessions , at gigs , auditions and in the opinions of fellow professionals have substantiated that confidence.

About 6 years ago I took up the mandolin with what quickly became a vengeance . I always LOVED the sound , the various genres it seemed to not only function but shine in , the songwriting possibilities it opened and , of course , the inspiration of the virtuosos most of us here are familiar with .

I practice , at times , religiously ..I listen daily at work for upwards of 10 hours , I play the instrument at gigs , record with it , and am , admittedly , almost fanatical about playing and exploring it .

AND YET after over 6 years of playing and many many more years of listening and appreciating the mandolin , I feel more than a little inadequate when it comes to actually playing ' in context ' ....finding my way around , making my fingers ( both hands ) do what my brain KNOWS they need to do . I feel a disconnect with this instrument which I've never experienced with guitar or drums . I cannot play it the way I think I SHOULD be able to by now .

I have a friend who plays piano brilliantly ....any genre ......by ear .....from charts ....incredibly talented guy . He relates to me how he started playing guitar when he started playing piano ( more than 30 years ) and experiences the same frustrations with guitar as I am with mandolin . He's just not 'connected' to it ...its isn't natural ...its an ongoing frustrating fight .

I've all but accepted that my mandolin and I will NEVER have the relationship I have with my guitar . " Its not you , its me " I keep silently confessing to my bewildered mando . I only hope she understands .....because I don't .

Am I alone in this frustration ? ...Anyone else here still discouraged after years of commitment and wondering why they didn't just go to medical school ?

[Nevin]

It is as simple as 40 years Vs 6 years. No it will never be the same. That doesn't mean it isn't worth it.

[Mike Scott]

Well, I’ve been “playing” mandolin (if you can call it that) for most of the last 9 years or so. I have quit out of frustration and sold off my mandolins on more than one occasion. I’ve also been a hack guitarist for about 20 years. At the jams or Irish sessions I attend I am always impressed by the others on mandolins. I have become mainly a rhythm player and don’t excel at that either, and yes I’ve had a few years of lessons. I rarely take any breaks. I am also a lousy reso player. So, to the OP, you’re probably doing fine, and will continue to improve. When you get discouraged, just think about us no talent strugglers like me and forge ahead........YMMV.

[Tom Wright]

I played guitar for 15 years when young and never got to the natural feel I have achieved recently with mandolin. I explain this from the fact that I was playing violin long before I tried guitar, and the different tuning and fingerboard never gelled. Much like the OP, but the reverse condition. I had been studying violin for ten years before I did any tinkering with guitar, and never addressed it in the rigorous way violin training entails, so guitar was always an add-on, not native.

It is likely the long run of professional guitar playing that is so ingrained as to complicate thinking about mandolin notes for roysboy that makes it into a kludge, where he has to translate from the familiar instrument instead of playing the new one directly (Like Windows on top of MS-DOS).

I love guitar, but was trained on violin. Mandolin is the answer for me but I am still a bit jealous of guitarists.

[Willie Poole]

I find that people tend to try and use what knowledge they obtained when playing another instrument and then trying to use that same thought process when trying to learn the mandolin, it just don`t work, you have to sort of wash everything out of your mind...I have a friend that plays an up right bass and also a bass guitar and he struggles with the bass guitar because he tries to use his knowledge with the upright and convert it to the bass guitar, it is a different animal even though they are tuned the same.....I played guitar for years and then switched over to mandolin and then found that it made my guitar playing actually better for some unknown reason, I never did try and use what I had learned on one and try to adapt it to the other...Same when I tried playing an upright bass, I just felt like it was a new instruments and didn`t use what I had learned on any other instrument......

Willie

[roysboy]

Perhaps the familiarity with the guitar has something to do with the difficulty in transitioning, as a few of you folks have suggested .....I have considered that .
But the fact that I can be away from a drum kit for months at a time ...even years , hop back behind it be not only comfortable and confident about my abilities and execution alongside solid players who count on that indicates to me that the mandolin -for whatever reasons - is just not gonna happen for me the way I'd hoped. As much as I practice ( and believe me I do ) I still seem to stumble over the same issues repeatedly ( fluidity , syncing of left hand fretting to right hand picking , soloing over changes - that one likely is related to the familiarity of the guitar's inverse tuneing - and , of course , tempo . Songs I learned in the first year or two I played mandolin have never significantly progressed in terms of the aforementioned stumbling blocks no matter my practice regimen . As I stated above , it just seems to be a disconnect with the instrument . Like the universe telling me " maybe this ain't for you " .

[catmandu2]

They're all different instruments. Drums involve different, larger-muscle coordination than finer movements of mndln; in my experience wrt time off, they're much like riding a bicycle - getting back on easily. I couldn't do that with most other instruments involving finer muscular coordination.

What style of guitar do you play?

Recall, the mndln has as much or more akin with violin than guitar. There's much transfer of skills among instruments, but ultimately they are different and involve different technical skills.

[Mark Wilson]

There's a popular musician/instructor who says in one of his videos that whenever someone asks him if they should continue or stop playing a particular instrument he tells them they can stop. Cause if you are asking if you should stop, or even if you could actually stop, there is probably something else more deserving of your time.

It's not just a cliche. Life is short. If it frustrates you or if you don't get the results you need to enjoy it then don't.

I'm a better bass player than a mandolin player. I'm frustrated that even tho I've learned to play, I still can't play mandolin well at full BG speeds after almost 5 years. The cold hard truth is - that's it's harder than I thought And i'm ok with that

[roysboy]

There's a popular musician/instructor who says in one of his videos that whenever someone asks him if they should continue or stop playing a particular instrument he tells them they can stop. Cause if you are asking if you should stop, or even if you could actually stop, there is probably something else more deserving of your time.

It's not just a cliche. Life is short. If it frustrates you or if you don't get the results you need to enjoy it then don't.

I'm a better bass player than a mandolin player. I'm frustrated that even tho I've learned to play, I still can't play mandolin well at full BG speeds after almost 5 years. The cold hard truth is - that's it's harder than I thought And i'm ok with that

Well..this is it in a nutshell and there's a lotta truth here Mark .I'm nowhere near bluegrass speeds after all these years and when I see 12 year old kids playing like that almost outa the womb I really have to wonder .....

[John Rosett]

I've been playing mandolin and guitar for 40+ years, and took up lap steel, "with a vengeance", about 10 years ago. I get really frustrated with the steel, because it seems like I will never be as good on it as I am on Mandolin. For me, I think that I am just not able to learn things as well at 60 as I could in my twenties. When I took up mandolin back then, I consumed music and tab at a pretty good rate, and now, learning steel, it just doesn't come as easily. So for me, I believe it's that my brain just doesn't work as well as it did 30-40 years ago.

[Marty Jacobson]

So for me, I believe it's that my brain just doesn't work as well as it did 30-40 years ago.

For me, I think it's because when I used to start something new, I had 12 hours a day 7 days a week to pour into it. I don't have that now, so things go more slowly. That's OK, though. Anyway one of the best things you can do for your mental acuity as you get up in years is to start new, challenging things.

[MikeZito]

It took me 38 years years to feel reasonably comfortable as a guitar and bass player - and I have been playing mandolin (on-and-off) for about 7 years . . . so, check with me again in 2039 . . . .

[Chuck Leyda]

I'm in a similar boat Roy.

Long time guitarist. Love the mando. Play OK I guess but still better at the guitar even though I no longer own a guitar!

I tried the guitar bodied octave mandolin and I found that to be my instrument. I'm better at that than guitar or mando. I play in GDAD so I see a fair amount of repeated patterns but I'm still learning and progress is faster and feels intuitive . If I could keep only one instrument it would be the GBOM. Maybe give that a try?

[catmandu2]

Then aside from technical aspects, there are a raft of additional issues to ponder. You allude some to context, but without more information we're left to assume.

What are you trying/wanting to do with the mndln? For example, if bluegrass or fiddle tune jams, then your "connection," drive, or vision for mndln may be clear and great. But if it's only another stringed instrument to explore, then a consequent path and wherewithal with the instrument may not be clear. If the mndln will help you play the music you want to play, then inspiration should avail.

Like everything, goals or objectives may be relevant. Or in other words, the music should help you assess and find some clarity.

[roysboy]

All good stuff ....folks ...lots I hadn't considered ....or just didn't accept , I suppose.
I have found some ( perverse ? ) comfort in our common misery .....

[roysboy]

Then aside from technical aspects, there are a raft of additional issues to ponder. You allude some to context, but without more information we're left to assume.

What are you trying/wanting to do with the mndln? For example, if bluegrass or fiddle tune jams, then your "connection, drive, or vision" for mndln may be clear and great. But if it's only another stringed instrument to explore, then a consequent path and wherewithal with the instrument may not be clear. If the mndln will help you play the music you want to play, then inspiration should avail.

Like everything, goals or objectives may be relevant. Or in other words, the music should help you assess and find some clarity.

I think I could narrow my goals down to achieving a competence about the fundamentals ....the straight -up melody-driven fiddle tunes ....the technique , the clean picking at reasonable tempos etc. This is the stuff I cannot seem to make the headway I'd assumed I would have made after 6 years of fairly diligent effort and commitment .
I'm certainly not expecting to be Thile by now . Sure maybe in a year or two .....lol

[catmandu2]

Huh. Sounds like a technique thing. Do you flatpick the guitar? Seems like you'd be able to transfer that to mndln, and find that fiddle tunes are typically "easier," or that the mndln facilitates a kind of ease for fiddle tunes.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Almost fifty years on guitar, only about five on mando. Not a pro on either. For this boy, the hardest thing about mando is that it's held and picked differently than a guitar.

If I think to hard about how I'm holding the mando or the pick, I choke up. When I forget about those and just think about what I'm playing, I can get into the zone.

[Randi Gormley]

I've played the mandolin for about 18 years now but when I'm hearing a tune, my go-to work through is -- flute fingering. And I haven't played the flute in decades. But it's what I played as a youngster so it's ingrained. And no matter how good I get at mandolin -- and at the rate I play and with whatever technique problems I have -- i'll probably never be as facile with mandolin as I was with flute simply because I learned it first before I knew what effort was required to become good at something new. Perhaps if I started the mandolin the same time I started flute, I'd be as fluid. But flute is sort of hard-wired. I can pick up the flute and, after about five minutes (if I don't mind not being able to breathe because, wow is my capacity limited any more!) can pick up an intermediate method book and play as if I hadn't put it down. Probably better because I slacked off when I was a kid. That doesn't make my mandolin any less attractive to me. As long as I can pretty much play what I want and am able to sit out stuff I just can't do (ah, to be one of those 12-year-old musical brilliancies!), it's enough for me because it allows me to make music with friends. And for me, that's a compromise I can live with.

[catmandu2]

I'm with Randi here - if the mndln provides pleasure, enjoy it - without comparing.

If you've got a mndln concept, which sounds as though you do, speed will come along, in time, with study, etc.

It took me 10 years to learn to play the piano accordian to some reasonable degree of proficiency.

[Bill Clements]

My original instrument was Bassoon, which is about as far removed from the mandolin as you can get. I know at my age I’ll never approach the facility of someone who began playing mandolin at the age I began studying bassoon. That hasn’t stopped me from comissioning a mandolin from Brian Dean, which I hope to have later this summer. I love the instrument. I love the sound. I love attending mandolin orchestra concerts and have been lucky enough to hear Evan Marshall, Brian Oberlin, and Chris Acquavella live in concert. Even more, I’ve found the folks who share my enjoyment of the mandolin to be some of the nicest people on earth.
Enjoy the ride and just have fun!

[Em Tee]

Lately I have been really hard on myself about my progression with the mandolin. I find the harder I am on myself the more tense I tend to be when i play. The more tense I am the worse I play. It's a cycle of essentially psyching myself out. You know why 12 year old kids are great at just about anything they try? Yes, it's plartly because their bodies and minds are young and responsive but it's also because they are fearless.

[Chopchop]

With me, it feels like music falls off of a guitar without tremendous effort, not a great player but decent. With the mandolin, it is one step forward and four steps back. Slow progress and painstakingly annoying when you hear people just take it up and are reasonably proficient in a few months.

Playing the guitar and singing comes naturally, playing the mandolin and singing is like doing calculus and water skiing at the same time.
I am a soldier in your war. But I aint gonna quit, no sir. I don't hate the mandolin, just the folks who play it well.

[Skip Kelley]

This is just my 2 cents of advice. If I were you, I would sit with a good picker you admire and see what he or she can give you by way of technique advice. I was very blessed to do this with Butch Baldassari years ago that made all the difference in the world to me. I hope this helps!

[Mark Miller]

I am nowhere near the musician you are. But I did have the experience moving from guitar to mandolin of pretty much transferring my picking technique and having that serve me fine up to a point of mandolin mediocrity. Then I hit a wall. Learned new tunes, got more familiar with the fretboard, but tone and speed were at a standstill. Basically set the instrument aside for six months. Then with the aid of Mike Marshall I took my picking technique apart. Now I’m slowly rebuilding muscle memory. Not even trying to play fast because I don’t want to fall back into old habits. Over the next few months I hope to get back to where I was and then we’ll see. My tone is way better at very modest tempos so I am hopeful. Maybe you’d have good results by doing that? But you may have adopted a more mandolin-specific right hand technique from the start. I don’t think you mentioned that one way or the other.