short scale and carved top oval

[dan in va]

The 13" Martin scale is liked by my left hand with the not so straight fingers. What is your experience with the short scale and carved plate mandolins?

Wondering about an X braced oval hole, maybe with the neck angle more like the f hole, possibly making up for the some of the loss of the downward string tension. Hoping for some good ideas to discuss with the builder i have in mind.

[rcc56]

The only carved mandolins of quality that I have come across were Lyon and Healy A,B, and C models. All three models were made with both long and short scale, depending on the year of manufacture. The consistency of the Lyon & Healy mandolins is close to remarkable-- there is much less variation in tone and projection between individual examples of the same model than we find in Gibson mandolins from the same period.

The bottom line is that the L & H short scale mandolins sound very similar to the long scale ones. Were the long scale mandolins slightly more powerful? Maybe so, maybe not.

The graduation and bracing of the plates is much more significant in determining the response of a mandolin than the scale length. The length of the neck and therefore, the placement of the bridge will also have a significant influence on the tone and response. If you like the sound of prewar Gibson, L & H, or Martin oval hole mandolins, you will want a short neck.

[pops1]

I have been thinking about this too, only I would want more reach on the short scale neck. I would also think about ff holes, tho it would be nice to have both. Dream,..... Dream Dream Dream.....Dream

Dan, has there been any progress on the Martin case for all those Martin owners without a case that fits?

[dan in va]

i appreciate the good mandolin talk going on. Yes, i also would prefer the long neck, and i'm also thinking about how the plates might be carved differently to make these features work.

Hi pops1. The Harptone rep wanted to wait until this year to take my Martin A to Oilville for measurements, and now i'm waiting for the weather to be more mandolin friendly for travel. Thinking this will happen in April.

[pops1]

Let us know, I think this case would work well for all the Supertone and other short neck instruments out there caseless.

That's why I was thinking of ff holes to make positioning the bridge easier and not too close to the sound hole, but I think either would work.

[dan in va]

Succeed or fail, i'll be updating that Harptone/Martin case thread.

Pava, Ellis and others are making long neck ovals successfully now. At first the bridge placement wasn't appealing, but i've gotten used to it now. Long/narrow neck, 13" scale, carved, X braced. Thinking maybe a round instead of oval hole.

[pops1]

I know what you mean, I like the scale on the Martin, but miss the access to the upper register and would like to have it be able to handle a little more right hand drive. Heavier strings with a low action on a shorter scale interests me a lot.

[dan in va]

Doing lots of research on ff's and ovals, so i'll ask something i haven't found the answer to. Hoping some builders will post, as that's why the thread is here.

With the ff's generally sounding so much brighter and the ovals sounding more tubby and lacking highs, have the ff graduated and braced plates been used for an oval? Is it possible to build an oval as responsive as an ff?

i once had a fair sounding '25 snakehead that was lacking volume with other instruments, while a Stanley A5 did just fine.

[pops1]

Dan, I am not sure that is true down the line. My '22 A2 is as loud in a jam as almost anything, it has a different projection, but folks tell me they can hear it across the room. It has depth, but warm highs, not necessarily quiet. Also my Brentrup ff is not bright, but has nice lows, so much so I can't use any pick thicker than 1mm or I feel if deadens the G string too much. It also has warm highs. It has the projection of ff mandolins, but I don't know that it is much louder than my A2. Sustain is different, but both have a good sustain, the oval of course having more, but the ff very nice sustain.

Also my A2 is not tubby in the least, nice deep clean low, no tubby. I hate that tubby sound.

[peter.coombe]

With the ff's generally sounding so much brighter and the ovals sounding more tubby and lacking highs, have the ff graduated and braced plates been used for an oval? Is it possible to build an oval as responsive as an ff?

My ovals don't lack highs, especially the most recent ones. In general, the top and back of oval hole mandolins are carved thicker. The reason for this is the position of the sound hole greatly affects longitudinal stiffness so the top is much more likely to sink under bridge pressure than an F hole mandolin. However, it is possible to carve the top thinner if you make adjustments to reduce the downward pressure of the bridge and stiffen up the top. A higher arch will stiffen up the top and lowering the bridge by reducing the neck angle will reduce the downward pressure of the bridge. Using a god stiff piece of Red Spruce for the top, and a smaller body also helps, as does X bracing instead of the cross brace. The smaller body shifts the main air resonance up in frequency so you don't get that boomy G string. This is what Lyon and Healy did 100 years ago, and is what I am doing on my latest mandolins and I suspect Gilchrist does the same on his model 1. The result is an incredibly loud and responsive oval hole mandolin with great clarity in the treble. I made the first one in July last year, 3 more this year and they have been a real eye opener for me. These are not short scale mandolins, although there is no reason why the same principles can't be applied to a short scale mandolin. I have made a short scale oval hole mandolin, but that was some years ago. A short scale 2 point asymmetrical Lyon and Healy reproduction is in the works right now.

[dan in va]

pops1, i've heard tales of snakeheads with a more balanced sound and i picked that '25 out of a half dozen. But maybe that dealer's inventory is a collection of tubby rejects. i've only heard one L&H and it was pretty balanced, but not the tone i'm after. The Ellis oval is more like it, but too much coin for now.

Peter, your mandolins are interesting. i wish your shop wasn't in another country on the other side of the world. What relative humidity do you like to maintain?

[Marty Jacobson]

I made a 13" oval hole archtop mandolin. I think it sounds great. Would definitely do it again.
http://martinjacobson.com/id/project...ustom-concerto

[pops1]

Wow Marty sounds great and looks even better. I think I saw a picture of that and maybe sound back when you made it, it looks familiar.

Dan, most of the teens I have heard were tubby. I had an '18 that was tubby and sold it to get my '22. Twenty years later i got the '18 back in a trade and did some work on it and resold it to a friend, it's not tubby at all anymore. It is not as loud or as good sounding as my '22, but it's not bad either.

[peter.coombe]

What relative humidity do you like to maintain?

40%

[dan in va]

Peter - thanks for the info.
Pops1 - i'm coming to the conclusion that snakeheads are much more inconsistent in tone than i thought them to be.
Marty - your mandolin designs are amazing, and i'm glad to learn the 13" scale works.