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Thread: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

  1. #1
    Registered User Altivo's Avatar
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    Question Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Does anyone know of a fairly recent review that compares several of the popular acoustic pickups that can be added to a mandolin?

    I've played wind instruments primarily, so I don't know a lot about this topic. I had some violin/fiddle background and decided last year to try mandolin. I like it, and am thinking about adding it to performances with the trio I belong to, but I'm fairly sure I'd need to add a pickup to my instrument (Eastman MD304.) I'd prefer not to make permanent modifications to the almost new mandolin, so some sort of add-on acoustic pickup seems to be in order. I see that many folks seem to find the piezo type pickups (especially the inexpensive ones) to be pretty inadequate. More expensive ones, such as LR Baggs Radius, get some mixed reviews but generally seem to be preferable. I'd love to see some comparisons made by experienced and serious performers, but have no idea where to look.

    Thanks in advance for any advice offered.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
    60+ years an amateur musician, lots of instruments, but only one mandolin.
    Eastman MD304 (and yes, I like it a lot)

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Lots of Piezo sources high as in mega Ohm Impedance in those, but simple to make..

    contact microphone AKG C11 is A condenser , Schertler Basik is an electaret, they need phantom power from amp

    Schertler has a Passive Dynamic , and another that also needs phantom power.. I only have the simple schertler

    it works without external power like a Dynamic Microphone.. a XLR to 1\4" matching trans former lets you use a guitar amp..

    I got a built in on my CF Mix, its hot enough and a 1/4" TRS jack..

    and it works with a TR instrument Cable, just fine into an acoustic amp, mixer or guitar amp..

    Eastman offered a Version With a Schertler built in it, you missed that I guess..
    guess you missed the hundreds of threads already posted on pickups too..



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  3. #3
    Registered User Altivo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Oh but I have looked at threads here on pickups. Most are several years old, some refer to products that appear to not be available any more, and none seemed to answer my questions very well. I know mandolins exist with factory installed pickups, but they were way outside my budget when I bought my instrument, and I wasn't sure I would need that feature. I have two guitars and a violin, only ever used them as pure acoustic too. I play soprano and alto flute often, but just use a vocal mic with those.

    I only came to this point because I talked to the sound guy at our primary venue and he feels that a pickup/pre amp combo makes it a lot easier to balance the instrument into a mix. He does a great job and I don't want to make it harder for him. On the other foot, he probably has mostly seen/heard mandolins in bluegrass, which isn't what we do. We are more laid back and nuanced, with Celtic, Old Time, and standards material.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
    60+ years an amateur musician, lots of instruments, but only one mandolin.
    Eastman MD304 (and yes, I like it a lot)

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Oh I guess you want a Magazine or blogger revue?


    Then , cost sensitive, get a piezo pickup installed, and a preamp from the same company.
    K&K does that.. Baggs & Fishman, too..

    I run my schertler thru a Roland AC 60, its got pre amp outs to the house board..
    when I don't want to haul it around Kind of small but heavy..

    I got a battery powered Mobile AC... last week , smaller than a boom box..

    Just Old Folks playing old folk music, and so not a subject for ASCAP/BMI lawyers..




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    Last edited by mandroid; Mar-17-2018 at 7:25pm.
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    I really look like that soliver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Check out the JJB Marcato. JJB claimS to make their components out of the same stuff as K&K and Schertler but at a fraction of the cost. I use the JJB Marcato on my Eastman MD305 with an LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI (which is also a preamp). I don’t play plugged in that often but it sounds pretty good to me.

    http://www.jjb-electronics.com/The_Marcato.html
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Schertler not Piezoelectric. .. don't overgeneralize.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    I have actually started the very article you are looking for (unfinished as of now).

    There haven't been any recent innovations with pickups. Most are still based on good old Piezo technology.

    Despite this, some do stand out. Maybe they are using $0.79 cent Piezo disks instead of $0.40 cent versions (seriously). I looked into manufacturing some myself.

    There is no holy grail. The basic reality is, the better a pickup sounds, the more prone to feedback. This makes sense, if a pickup has a broad frequency range and really replicates the instrument, it is going to feedback.

    So a piezo mounted in a bridge saddle, like the Fishman 100 series, will be less prone to feedback, but also amplifying less of the acoustic tone. Something like the LR Baggs Radius is much fuller, but amplifies the top and is prone to handling noise. Especially if not EQed correctly. The K&K twin is a good compromise. It is also amplifying the top, but less sensitive than the LR Baggs. I have installed more of the Radius than anything. Most complaints come from people that are not using a good EQ. Ideally something that has a low cut to get rid of the handling noise. The low G string is just under 200hz. If you can t cut everything below that, you will get a much cleaner signal.

    Combined, I have installed hundreds of these.

    In the end, the pickup is a percentage of your overall results. The Preamp and sound system will be more important. This needs to be emphasized.... Preamp, EQ and signal chain have a much bigger impact than the pickup.
    Robert Fear
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    Registered User Altivo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post

    Just Old Folks playing old folk music, and so not a subject for ASCAP/BMI lawyers..




    ...
    LOL. Yes, that is mostly true. But in an outdoor setting so that some amplification is generally needed. The old-fashioned octagonal bandstand with roof may keep the rain off your instruments but doesn't offer much help when audiences tend to have rock music hearing damage syndrome.

    I at least feel that people in this forum are more likely to have valid (even if subjective) opinions on these topics. I'm having difficulty taking seriously the comments found on music sales sites (or Amazon) when most of them are misspelled and ungrammatical.

    For example, I play a round hole mandolin, not one with "F" sound holes. If someone thinks a particular device works better (or not as well) with my type of instrument and my style of music, I'm eager to hear why they think that. But I'm not very excited about being told "get an arch top mandolin with "F" sound holes, they project better." I chose the instrument I have based on sound comparison to several others, and I'd like to find a pickup system that will preserve and amplify that tone quality, rather than change it into something else.

    Anyway, thanks for your information. There are at least a few starting points in there.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
    60+ years an amateur musician, lots of instruments, but only one mandolin.
    Eastman MD304 (and yes, I like it a lot)

  11. #9

    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    when most of them are misspelled and ungrammatical.
    haha, you just describes many of my posts!

    I'd like to find a pickup system that will preserve and amplify that tone quality, rather than change it into something else.
    Have you considered a small diaphragm condenser mic? None of the pickups I have dealt with do a good job of reproducing an accurate tone.
    Robert Fear
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    Quietly Making Noise Dave Greenspoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    FWIW, the Baggs Radius is a contact ribbon pick-up, similar to a mic, and not a piezo electric device.
    Axes: Eastman MD-515 & El Rey; Eastwood S Mandola
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    <<The low G string is just under 200hz. If you can t cut everything below that, you will get a much cleaner signal.>>

    This is really helpful! Thanks, Robert!
    Axes: Eastman MD-515 & El Rey; Eastwood S Mandola
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    A couple of years ago I tried to get a couple of the preamp manufactures to make the bass control be at 250 hz rather than 80hz because it would be better for a mandolin. I told them there would be a market, but no one wanted to make a separate product. It definitely cleans up the sound and 80hz is great for a guitar, but not a mandolin.
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    Registered User Altivo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    I'm willing to consider anything that will do what I need it to do. Keith (sound tech) favors anything that is attached in a fixed position on the instrument over a mic on a stand or boom that can be in or out of focus with a performer's movements.

    I'm looking at LR Baggs Radius M because it is apparently a microphone functioning as a pickup, rather than the more typical piezo design. But as I said, I'm not knowledgeable in this area, having been entirely acoustic in my musical career to this point. The wide selection of pickups and preamp/DI devices with all their claims and positive/negative commentary is more than a little daunting.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
    60+ years an amateur musician, lots of instruments, but only one mandolin.
    Eastman MD304 (and yes, I like it a lot)

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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    I have been using a K&K with a FireEye preamp for several years now and get a great sound. I tried several preamps before the FireEye and none works as well. This duplicates the sound of my mandolin quite well. If you are going to be playing quite loud you may want to use a magnetic pickup. I feel most piezo pickups when played loud change sound and of course are more prone to feedback. That being said I play with an electric guitar at times. While we are not loud, we are not always quiet, and I can keep up. Sometimes I will set a mic up for extra lead volume in a large event, but that is just to help keep more acoustic at a louder volume. I can press the lead button on the RedEye, and sometimes I do, but also don't mind stepping up to a mic either. I only use the mic on rare occasions. f you are using a tone guard you may want to take it off for plugging in, I got feedback sooner with one on when using a Schertler pickup, the K&K is more feedback resistant, but I don't use one anymore.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Greenspoon View Post
    FWIW, the Baggs Radius is a contact ribbon pick-up, similar to a mic, and not a piezo electric device.
    No - it isn't.

    It uses a piezo film. It it absolutely nothing like a ribbon mic.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    It uses a piezo film. It it absolutely nothing like a ribbon mic.
    This is correct, It is standard piezo film suspended between magnets. A very cool design...
    Robert Fear
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Ultimately - and I will distil this right down to basics - the only reason to use a contact transducer (in most cases) it to get more gain before feedback. The 'cost' for that is fidelity. Even if you use the very best and latest 'modelling' DSP-based processors (Fishman Aura being one of the better-known examples) you still trade off quite a lot. Not only fidelity (it does not sound EXACTLY 'natural' but you also lose the ability to 'work a mic' to self-mix and control dynamics (obviously, you can do this through adapting your playing technique, to some extent, anyway). The fact remains, though, even if you invest in the best possible transducers and preamps, you are still 'chasing' what can be achieved a heck of a lot better and easier using even a fairly cheap microphone...these days, even a $50 condenser will almost without exception destroy $1,000 worth of technology in transducers and the associated gizmos to make them sound 'more natural'... you can, in any event, attain very good levels with a mic IF you know how to use them correctly, i.e., making sure any 'leaked' or reflected sound is minimized and any monitors are in the null point of the mic's pickup pattern...
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    I have had mandolins with pickups. I never put one in my Collings MT, though. I have had very good luck with just a simple SM57 microphone for amplification.
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    The original DynM is like a SM57, as a contact mic.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    I too like the sound of a microphone, but I must say I do get a nice sound with pickups. The reason I use them is that I can play softer and come out front better. A mandolin picks up well into most any mic, and like almeriastrings says that is the best sound. I never worried about the mic until I got older and my hands bother when I play hard into a mic all night. I also find the pickup sounds better when you don't play hard, which for me works well. If you turn down and play hard I think it is a brighter, harder sound than when you turn up and play softer. That could just be my old ears too.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Thanks to everyone for contributing opinions, experience, and information. This is rather like what I hoped to obtain, and I feel more comfortable about making some decisions on what to spend and what to buy.

    Now one more specific question:

    With the dual input transducers such as K&K or JJB, where is the optimal placement of the two pickups? I see the K&K has unequal leads, which to me seems to imply the carpenter's jack on one side, and the pickups placed on each side, presumably near to or inside the f-holes? Where would they go on a mandolin with a round or oval sound hole instead? JJB has equal length leads, which seems to suggest a somewhat different geometry.

    I'm looking at pre-amp/DI units with some kind of equalization controls, feedback suppression, and flexible power source (ideally taking XLR, battery, -or- AC adapter if possible.) My partner says he has a violin pickup he isn't using that I can experiment with to see how I feel about the sound and that should help too.

    I just want to sound like a mandolin, not a banjo or a rock guitar. Why I didn't feel comfortable asking for advice at Guitar Center, BTW. I mentioned mandolin there once and couldn't shut off the staffer spouting on and on about Led Zeppelin and how they used mandolin.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
    60+ years an amateur musician, lots of instruments, but only one mandolin.
    Eastman MD304 (and yes, I like it a lot)

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    Registered User mandowilli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    As to the placement of the transducers I placed them as suggested in the instructions that were included, in my case the K&K, and have had very good results.

    I also have had success using a mic in duos, and limited success in trios, but things have quickly gotten out of control after that.

    I agree 100% that the best sound you can get is from a really good quality mic. But if you are playing in a bigger situation and don't have a dedicated sound person and/or sophisticated gear then your great sounding mic is a wild card that you will be constantly dealing with. And all of the time you are dealing with this great sounding mic is time that you are not harnessing your playing ability. In fact, playing the music will be the last thing you think of by the time you get it right.

    My path has led me to the K&K pickup through a Grace Felix preamp as I play in many situations.

    If you are just going to be playing in a duo or trio take the great suggestions here and get a killer mic.
    willi

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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Certainly if you are playing with a loud, electrified band then you are not going to have much choice: a pickup is pretty much mandatory, though note that Sam Bush (who is not exactly a wilting flower, volume-wise) feeds the FOH from a Countryman Isomax mic, while using an old Barcus-Berry 'hot dot' transducer for monitor duty. For some, a very good compromise is a high-grade clip-on mic such as the AT PRO 35/ATM350 or the DPA 4099. These work because they are super-close to the source and have very good off-axis rejection. You can get these REALLY loud if you need too, and they are pretty simple to set up and use, requiring minimal EQ. That said, if you do need rock-star levels, a transducer is probably the best option.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Thanks once again. I am presently performing with a trio, it's true, but I've been invited to play with others, including a mostly bluegrass quintet. In the long run, I suspect there's no way around this other than figuring out the pickup and preamp arrangement. Tried the violin clip-on this morning into a HoneyTone miniature guitar amp, and at least my fears of terrible distortion of the sound are reduced. Even with that suboptimal arrangement, it was possible to get a reasonable sound once the controls on the amp were set properly. The clip-on mic (so-called, though it's probably a piezo transducer more properly) has to go on the bridge, which isn't ideal either in my opinion, yet if things are adjusted carefully the end result isn't all that bad.

    I'll pull the trigger on something this week, as I need time to get used to whatever I choose. K&K, JJB, or Baggs I suspect will be the winners. Preamps I need to discuss with Keith, I think.
    Please be patient with me, I'm only half-baked.
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    Default Re: Acoustic pickup comparisons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Altivo View Post
    The clip-on mic (so-called, though it's probably a piezo transducer more properly) has to go on the bridge, which isn't ideal either in my opinion, yet if things are adjusted carefully the end result isn't all that bad.
    Absolutely not. They are genuine - real - condenser microphones of extremely high quality. Used in the most demanding live sound situations the world over: orchestral instruments, sax and other wind instruments, Chris Thiele (ATM350) uses one on mandolin.

    https://www.dpamicrophones.com/micro...nt-microphones

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...-mic-with-clip

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's a DPA on my Ellis...

    Here's an Audio Technica ATM350 on a Gibson:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Both of these are ridiculously good quality... they sound phenomenal.
    Last edited by almeriastrings; Mar-19-2018 at 12:18pm.
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    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
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