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Thread: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Not sure what you mean.
    I described "In the Pines" as slowed down with more notes added. Didn't want anyone to confuse that as meaning bad or inferior in any way - it's just a different way to play great tunes. I'll link to an example below - and I am loving the stuff linked as "Not Bluegrass," so I will keep that up.

    Not Bluegrass:


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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I’m sure you’re right. I want to be heard or I wouldn’t busk. But in an OTjam I want to become a part of the whole. I want to be inside the tune, to live there. Ultimately, I want to inhabit the tunes to the point that I can lay out and feel that fullness of the tune with my ears alone and to dance with the tune without movement.
    Mike Snyder

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by doublestoptremolo View Post
    This I don't get. How is gathering with friends and strangers--in a campground, church fellowship hall, parking lot, under a tree, or on someone's back porch--and standing or sitting in a circle and playing bluegrass songs, "stage oriented"?
    Little things. Seen in contrast to OT anyway.

    Like - so many bluegrass jam sessions, casual jams in parking lots etc., are conducted standing up. Standing up?

    Like taking a break, improvising to show your chops, and soloing is an integral part of BG. (A rather isolated OT fiddler I knew once said about it "what, are they hoping there is a talent scout in the audience?" Not that I would buy a lot of what this OT fiddler would say, actually, he was a character, but he said a lot of funny things.)

    There is more competition in casual BG jams. Like two sail boats on the same water, when there are two mandolin players at the same jam they seem many times to be eyeing each other and preparing to drop their gloves.

    Emphasis on fast. Because it sounds more impressive.

    By way of contrast, most OT jams I have attended, were sitting down, maybe some slight ornamentation of a tune but no real improvisation, (heck the tune is good enough as it is), many many (many) reps of each tune because its so much fun to "get into" the tune, emphasis on playing the tune at the speed that is right for the tune, and an atmosphere of doing what you can for the tune while enjoying your place in the synergy.
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  7. #54
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Snyder View Post
    I’m sure you’re right. I want to be heard or I wouldn’t busk. But in an OTjam I want to become a part of the whole. I want to be inside the tune, to live there. Ultimately, I want to inhabit the tunes to the point that I can lay out and feel that fullness of the tune with my ears alone and to dance with the tune without movement.
    YES! Well said.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by A 4 View Post
    I described "In the Pines" as slowed down with more notes added. Didn't want anyone to confuse that as meaning bad or inferior in any way - it's just a different way to play great tunes.
    OK. I did not understand. In the Pines is an old old tune/song.

    Not Bluegrass:
    Real cool. The early recordings of this are real fast. I like it.

    Contrast to a more traditional version:



    And (why not) contrast to how Kenny Baker played it, at 2:20 on this recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg2ayrwhlQM
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    [QUOTE=JeffD;1640474]

    OK. I did not understand. In the Pines is an old old tune/song.
    I was referring to the Todd Phillips Album from the 1990s, which is called "In the Pines," which has several fiddle tunes on it, and "In the Pines" done as an instrumental.

    Looks Like JeffD's video link did not come through.

    Not Bluegrass:


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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I guess my point, more succinctly, is that when you show OT music done by consummate musicians, on the stage, in front of an audience, its great, its amazing, but it kind of misses vein. IMO etc., etc.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  12. #58

    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Snyder View Post
    The music is just more accessible to mid-level musicians like me.
    I feel the opposite. Old time is about playing the melody, Bluegrass can be about playing the melody with a few extra ornamentations (harmony, tremolo). But the melodies in fiddle tunes have a lot more notes than the melodies to a vocal number. And the lyrics, to me, make it easier to distinguish the melodies. I could envision learning 100-150 bluegrass songs, but I'd probably top out at 50 fiddle tunes.

  13. #59
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I think there are a few too many generalizations going on here. Bluegrass has gone from performance music to social-picking music. A year or so ago, there was a thread here asking about who went to bluegrass festivals and why. The overwhelming majority said they went to pick in the campground, and many said they seldom even venture to see what's on the stage. While some bluegrass is still "for performance only", the number of those traditional bluegrass groups is shrinking. The cross-over groups are taking charge.

    As to the relative difficulty, old-time can be pretty challenging for the fiddler or banjo player if they choose to make it that way. Bluegrass has speed at times, and it's pretty much of the "let's see how many notes we can play in as little time as possible" variety. Most bluegrass solos tend to be lick oriented, a flurry of stuff followed by a well-rehearsed tail that leads to the next soloist.

    The slides, double stops, etc., are common to both bluegrass and old-time, it's just bluegrass is usually a little faster. Learn old time techniques, and they work perfectly well with bluegrass.

    So much is made about the purpose of this being that, or vice verse, but it's all been running together over the past 20 years or so. The increase in festivals and music camps has largely been responsible for this, but as many folks sit around and pick bluegrass as play old time now. Both old time and bluegrass have had younger players pushing boundaries and simultaneously annoying the purists. And a number of platers now are ripping on old-time tunes as fast or faster than some bluegrass tunes. It's all a blur now, and the labels are there simply for marketing purposes.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I agree that the art of Old Time guitar back up is getting lost. I know of only a few guitar players that get it. Joe Newberry is one.

    The Foghorn Stringband also does a good job.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I'm enjoying this thread and the video examples! It's an education about bluegrass (about which I know very little) and old-time (about which I know even less), regardless of how blurred the boundaries are in practice.

    Most people who play music also consume "stage music" in some form, whether in recorded form or at concerts. It doesn't work the other way round! Commercial music is so ubiquitous today that taking part in amateur communal music-making has something of a primaeval appeal to it. This is somewhat ironic considering that it pre-dates recorded music by centuries. But we live in topsy-turvy times.

    My reason for saying this is that it makes very little sense to say that one categorically doesn't like commercial, recorded, staged, or "performance" music. But it does make sense to have a particular love of communal music. I think this may be what the blogger means.

    I, for one, really like it when people - regardless of skill or equipment - join in with the playing, singing, or dancing. It's what folk music is all about in my mind.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    One indication of the author's bias is his scorn for the idea that Bluegrass be considered "roots" music. Old Time music has its roots, and has become a branch of something, and a root of something, etc. etc. In 2018, Bluegrass Music is much a roots music as Old Time is a roots music. I assume when we speak of "roots" in music we are referencing the same type of analogy as we use genealogically speaking of a "family tree" - so we have parents and offspring - offspring become parents and have offspring, and etc. in the circle of life.

    I think in the American music tradition, when one thinks of roots he must first think of Native American music, and then of the musical traditions that immigrants brought in, notably (but not limited to) from the British Isles and from Africa.

    If Old Time music is roots music, but Bluegrass is not, then did Adam and Eve sing Old Time tunes?

    IMHO not enough emphasis is placed on the effects of Native American musical traditions and their effect on the practitioners of music from the British Isles and the practitioners of music from Africa and the Caribbean isles in any of these discussions of Americana and Roots.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by A 4 View Post
    Not Bluegrass:

    Very nice and definitely not Bluegrass but Not Old Time either. This is more the modernized amalgamated arranged style coming out of the Berklee crowd. If you listen carefully there are some well-orchestrated jazz licks and a few jazz-substituted chords thrown in there. Lovely listening music by top musicians.
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    I believe that, historically speaking, social bluegrass ("parking lot picking" or "bluegrass jam night" or "bluegrass porch [or campground] picking") is an offshoot of commercial bluegrass. If we wanted to define a "pure bluegrass" genre, the form would be that of a performing professional ensemble. Once we move to "parking lot picking" the form can and does change a great deal from time to time with regard to the song catalog and even instrumentation. Seven guitars, a harmonica and a mandolin is not the original bluegrass - but no reason it couldn't be a bluegrass jam.

    The "bluegrass jam" is really as much an offshoot of bluegrass as is newgrass or Dawg music.
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Since this thread was started by something published by Dwight Diller, we may as well see a Dwight Diller video, too.

    Not Bluegrass:


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  24. #66

    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    ... IMHO not enough emphasis is placed on the effects of Native American musical traditions and their effect on the practitioners of music from the British Isles and the practitioners of music from Africa and the Caribbean isles in any of these discussions of Americana and Roots.
    I like this example of Metis fiddling. Not Bluegrass:


    (or direct link)

    That's a Canadian band, but there are people who identify as Metis in the U.S. as well, and besides, geographically speaking, the continent of North America includes more than just the U.S. anyway.

  25. #67
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    That's confusing to me. Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, but then, I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? Beautifully played whatever it is.

    Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.

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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    That's confusing to me. Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, but then, I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? Beautifully played whatever it is.

    Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.
    That is by no means typical Metis fiddling, but artfully arranged traditional Metis music, as when a fiddler suffers through the process of playing with a symphony orchestra. (Sigh, it isn't easy for a traditional musician to make a living.) Search YouTube for "Metis fiddling Manitoba" or "Metis fiddling Saskatchewan" for a great many examples of traditional fiddling. For studies and recordings of Metis and indigenous fiddling and the connections between Native and European music, check out Ann Lederman's work. I'm rushing out the door, but you should be able to find her material or references at least on Google. I'm off to the sugar bush.

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  28. #69

    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ... Is the group made up of the hybrid/Metis people? (I'm just using the Wiki definition of Mets, being a french derivative of the word hybrid of indigenous and French Canadians). ...
    The band's website says:

    "Born in Winnipeg with proud Métis roots, siblings Alyssa, Conlin, Nicholas, and Danton perform Métis fiddle music passed down by their elders, while drawing on their diverse backgrounds in classical music, jazz and beyond. ..."

    So it looks like they're playing trad tunes but changing it up a bit with other influences as well.

    I think I hear a very subtle drum in places in the tune, I don't know if that's a First Nations influence or more like Irish bodhran or ??

    In any case, I love the nice rhythm and bounce they get with that tune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ... That sounds awfully like a classical string quartet playing a Quebecois tune, ...
    It'd have to be an exceptionally good one (IMO). Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well, without prior fiddle-tunes experience. I've heard plenty of classically-trained violinists trying to play fiddle tunes which they regard as "simple", yeah they get all the notes right and they think that's all there is to it, but the rhythm is all wrong/missing and the end result is just a string of meaningless notes without feeling, unlistenable.

    It's my guess that the musicians in the Metis video already had plenty of experience in playing fiddle tunes & dance music, before they ventured off into the classical/jazz/etc influences mentioned on their webpage.

    Anyway, seems they're well received:

    "... [debut album North West Voyage] received "Best Traditional Album" at the 2012 Canadian Folk Music Awards. ... The group has performed their music for audiences across Canada and internationally; from intimate settings in libraries, museums and schools, to festivals and events such as the 2015 Para-Pan Am Games opening ceremony, the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards, the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, the Mariposa Folk Festival, and the Alianait festival in Iqaluit, Nunavut."

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ... I can't say I know the tune for sure. Is it a Native Canadian tune? ...
    Good question - I don't know. That YouTube video was apparently uploaded by someone else other than the band, and below the video on the YouTube page the tune is identified as a medley of three tunes, but that can't be right because (to me anyway) it doesn't sound like three separate tunes. It sounds like one tune. Anyway here's what the YouTube page says:

    "La Grande Gigue Simple / Red River Jig / Big John McNeil"

    Maybe it's one of those? If I had to guess, I'd say the first one just because the name looks French and, to my ears, the playing sounds like it has a strong French influence as well. But I could be wrong. If I can remember it tonight, if someone else hasn't already ID'd the tune, I might look up those tunes and see if any of them is a match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ... Beautifully played whatever it is. ...
    Yes.

    Hearing awesome fiddling like that, makes me want to buy another fiddle, but... I've been down that rabbit hole before and after years of it I was still never quite satisfied with my fiddling. Bowing and rhythm/'feel' was no problem, but my sense of pitch is not really good enough (especially nowadays) to be playing a fretless instrument anymore. I can tell when a note is 'off' but I can't tell if it's sharp or flat without trial-and-error each time... not a good match for fiddle. I like my frets. So I will have to content myself with listening to other people playing great fiddle tunes, instead of like in the old days whenever I heard a cool tune I'd be like "I gotta learn how to play that! I gotta buy that instrument!" I even bought a set of Uilleann pipes one time. (Now those were a definite challenge, I never got very far with it, it seems that me & reeds do not get along very well.)

  29. #70
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    "It'd have to be an exceptionally good one (IMO). Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well, without prior fiddle-tunes experience. I've heard plenty of classically-trained violinists trying to play fiddle tunes which they regard as "simple", yeah they get all the notes right and they think that's all there is to it, but the rhythm is all wrong/missing and the end result is just a string of meaningless notes without feeling, unlistenable. "

    Don't start down that road! Excellent musicians pick up all the subtleties if forms no matter what the stye, that's what music is. You might be hearing amateur classical musicians trying different things out, but the good musicians play anything well. I've worked with classical violinist and cellists for years, introducing fiddle forms for both their fun and to use for teaching. The good players are on it in a heartbeat.

    it's the same thing discussed on any trad forum and thread, that sort of "we're great and no one else can duplicate our marvelous send of musical perfection" which drives people from ever wanting to even try to play their music. Hard core trad sessions in all forms, Irish, Bluegrass, Old-time, etc are dying out, and being replaced by much more free-form sessions and jams. Pockets of the hard core exist, but most people want to have fun, and it's not fun to be told you're not authentic, especially when you're playing is every bit as good as the person who is guarding the tradition. I can't tell you how many kids in the college master's programs for classical violin make a ton of money playing all sorts of Irish pubs, bluegrass gigs, etc all around the area. They must be good because they're also winning competitions. Like Mairi Black winning Glenfiddich.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    That is by no means typical Metis fiddling, but artfully arranged traditional Metis music, as when a fiddler suffers through the process of playing with a symphony orchestra. (Sigh, it isn't easy for a traditional musician to make a living.) Search YouTube for "Metis fiddling Manitoba" or "Metis fiddling Saskatchewan" for a great many examples of traditional fiddling. For studies and recordings of Metis and indigenous fiddling and the connections between Native and European music, check out Ann Lederman's work. I'm rushing out the door, but you should be able to find her material or references at least on Google. I'm off to the sugar bush.
    Excellent, thanks! I'll be doing some research!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Very nice and definitely not Bluegrass but Not Old Time either. ...
    Absolutely agree.
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I believe that, historically speaking, social bluegrass ("parking lot picking" or "bluegrass jam night" or "bluegrass porch [or campground] picking") is an offshoot of commercial bluegrass..
    And it could arguably be said that stage and performance old time is an off shoot of back porch old time. With a huge exception to be made for playing dances, which is a performance of sorts that has been part of OT for ever.


    I love listening to the very early recordings of old time music, and it is often within a little radio skit, with the musicians playing goofy characters, and involving moonshine, lack of urban sophistication, gettin' together to pick, etc. The idea, I think, was to provide a context for folks who had never heard this music before. A context and a stereotype unfortunately, but the point is that music being recorded music was understood to have come from somewhere, from a tradition that wasn't performance per se.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    The Foghorn Stringband also does a good job.
    Yes indeed.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ".... .... Not meaning to be argumentative or anything, but I'd be skeptical that the average classical string quartet would be able to bring a fiddle tune to life that well... ... "

    Don't start down that road! Excellent musicians pick up all the subtleties if forms no matter what the stye, that's what music is.
    YES!

    Adherents of every genre have gigantic blind spots in there understanding of the abilities of adherents of other genres.

    There are many things "the average" string quartet musician can't do, just like the average musician of any genre.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    funny....

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  36. #75
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why old time and bluegrass are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    Rē Mrk's comment, I have never heard of anyone trying to bridge Native American sounds with European/African imported traditions. Are there any studies on this? I'd be curious to hear if there are any, or any musicians doing this.
    Hi Charlie, I haven't read any scholarly studies, but it is a field of interest to me, so I do hope to find time to delve into it more. There is the evidentiary problem of studying a culture that was subjected to genicide - much of the blending of Native American culture with European culture occurred early in the history of America, and was hampered later by the "Indian Wars". The blending of African and Native American cultures continued as African Americans sought refuge with Native Americans, the only group ostracized more than them.

    For starters I can point you to a popular treatment rather than a scholarly study; it is an eye-opening piece about recent past and current musicians doing this - you probably know most of the musicians, though you may be totally unaware of the Native American culture they bring to the table. Due to the state-sponsored ostracism of Native Americans and their culture that has continued to recent times, the influence has most often been hidden from view. The movie is titled Rumble: The Indians Who Rocked The World

    I'll be happy to share other resources with you as I find them, Charlie, and would appreciate the same consideration if you come across related material.

    It is of note that the massacre popularly known as Wounded Knee resulted largely due to Native American music.
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