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Thread: In The Family Genes?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    It's not genes, it's practice.
    Genes and ability does help though ! I could and do practice as much and probably more than anyone on this cafe for the last seven years and my improvement is minimal to others I know who practice far less than me . The key like you say is practice and starting young !! I didn't begin practicing until I was 63 ! And a half !

  2. #27
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Genes determine eye color. Ability comes from practice. The later you start, the slower your progress.

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    Registered User Steve VandeWater's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    My mother had a piano that she played occasionally, and my dad had a lot of old albums that he listened to (Mitch Miller, Gay Nineties stuff, marches, Civil War songs, some Irish drinking songs, etc.) all of which I thought was stupid and very old fashioned. I was not at all musical growing up, but in my 30's started to really like old time and bluegrass music.
    When my daughter got a ukulele and was playing and singing in a single day, I was amazed. I thought that if she could do it, so could I. So I bought a mandolin around age 50 and have been obsessed ever since. I've had everything from a Rogue to an MK, a Washburn, 2 Eastmans, a Stiver, two teens Gibsons (A1 & F4), Mid Missouri, and now a Tyler White and another hand built F5, a Pruitt. Also a fiddle, two ukes tuned in fifths, and a banjo uke tuned in fifths (not to mention my concrete mandolin). I listen to and play almost exclusively Old Time, Irish, and a little BG. My siblings all say that my musical tastes are exactly like my dad's, which at one time I would have thought ludicrous. Now I'm proud to think that they are right.
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  5. #29
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Genes determine eye color. Ability comes from practice. The later you start, the slower your progress.
    I guess we just can't agree ! I do agree that practice, determination, dedication and desire are probably the most important traits one can have in learning anything ! But, look at Mark O'Connor ! As a teenager he won the Idaho fiddle, guitar and mandolin championship the same year ! He just picked up a fiddle and could play it like someone who has been playing for a long time. I could practice baseball every day for years and never be good enough to play on a college team let alone a professional team ! Especially the Yankees ! But, some people just seem to have a musical or athletic ability that makes it easier to become more proficient than other people. Genes can play a part in this ! But, had I not possessed the desire , determination and daily PRACTICING ( there, I said it Brian) I would not be playing in a band today !

  6. #30

    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Genes determine eye color. Ability comes from practice. The later you start, the slower your progress.
    It's certainly a feel-good notion to think that there are no biological limits on things like intelligence and creativity. The old "you can be whatever you want if you work hard" line of thought. With this line of thinking, everyone is born with the same capacity for intelligence and learning across all disciplines. Depending on what you mean by "ability", I strongly disagree.

    With that being said, just because someone has the biological credentials, so to speak, does not mean that they don't have to practice and work hard at things, but one's "maximum ability" and rate of learning will depend on the genes.

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  8. #31
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyPicker View Post
    It's certainly a feel-good notion to think that there are no biological limits on things like intelligence and creativity. The old "you can be whatever you want if you work hard" line of thought. With this line of thinking, everyone is born with the same capacity for intelligence and learning across all disciplines. Depending on what you mean by "ability", I strongly disagree.

    With that being said, just because someone has the biological credentials, so to speak, does not mean that they don't have to practice and work hard at things, but one's "maximum ability" and rate of learning will depend on the genes.
    I agree !

  9. #32
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyPicker View Post
    It's certainly a feel-good notion to think that there are no biological limits on things like intelligence and creativity. The old "you can be whatever you want if you work hard" line of thought. With this line of thinking, everyone is born with the same capacity for intelligence and learning across all disciplines. Depending on what you mean by "ability", I strongly disagree.

    With that being said, just because someone has the biological credentials, so to speak, does not mean that they don't have to practice and work hard at things, but one's "maximum ability" and rate of learning will depend on the genes.
    Yeah, I agree too (with your disagreement). The potential needs to be developed, and the earlier the better, but there is obvious genetic variation in human potential.

    There is an understandable tendency in music forums to reinforce the feel-good notion that anyone can achieve anything, and hard work is the only variable. But biology doesn't work like that. The range of all sorts of human abilities tends to follow a bell curve distribution, where most of us are somewhere in the middle of the curve. Neither genius talents nor people unfortunate enough to be afflicted with genetic amusia (inability to process music).

    The huge middle of the bell curve is where it's easiest to correlate hard work with progress. It doesn't come too easy (as with genius) or too hard (as with amusia), so it's tempting to think hard work is all that matters.

    Anyway, I'm firmly in the middle, so I need to spend more time practicing today.
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  11. #33

    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Yeah, I agree too (with your disagreement). The potential needs to be developed, and the earlier the better, but there is obvious genetic variation in human potential.

    There is an understandable tendency in music forums to reinforce the feel-good notion that anyone can achieve anything, and hard work is the only variable. But biology doesn't work like that. The range of all sorts of human abilities tends to follow a bell curve distribution, where most of us are somewhere in the middle of the curve. Neither genius talents nor people unfortunate enough to be afflicted with genetic amusia (inability to process music).

    The huge middle of the bell curve is where it's easiest to correlate hard work with progress. It doesn't come too easy (as with genius) or too hard (as with amusia), so it's tempting to think hard work is all that matters.

    Anyway, I'm firmly in the middle, so I need to spend more time practicing today.
    From the wikipedia page: "Studies have shown that congenital amusia is a deficit in fine-grained pitch discrimination and that 4% of the population suffers from this disorder."

    My goodness, 4%!?!? The poor souls!

  12. #34
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Babies are born with the gift of knowing how to breathe not knowing how to paint or play the mandolin. People who seem to have a special gift have spent way more time practicing than you and me.

  13. #35
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Babies are born with the gift of knowing how to breathe not knowing how to paint or play the mandolin. People who seem to have a special gift have spent way more time practicing than you and me.
    From the Wiki article linked above:

    "Neurologically intact individuals appear to be born musical. Even before they are able to talk, infants show remarkable musical abilities that are similar to those of adults in that they are sensitive to musical scales and a regular tempo.[2] Also, infants are able to differentiate between consonant and dissonant intervals. These perceptual skills indicate that music-specific predispositions exist.[2]"

    If 4% of the population lacks this ability due to congenital amusia, is it really all that hard to imagine that another 4% of individuals at the other end of the bell curve are what we usually call genetically "gifted," with a higher than average musical potential?

    Note that I said potential, not that it doesn't require hard work to develop the potential.
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  15. #36
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Are you assuming that genetic anomalies are symmetric?

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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    I have three very musical sons, one of whom I have made a CD with.

    I do not come from from a musical family - indeed my dad was one of the least musical people I ever knew.
    David A. Gordon

  17. #38

    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Babies are born with the gift of knowing how to breathe not knowing how to paint or play the mandolin. People who seem to have a special gift have spent way more time practicing than you and me.
    Sure. That doesn't mean said baby doesn't have an upper limit to their ability from genetics.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Are you assuming that genetic anomalies are symmetric?
    General Intelligence in the population seems to be a bell curve, so I could see musical ability also being so. All speculation. Then again, from my experience dealing with many different people in life, maybe the curve is less of a bell and much heavier at the bottom end :-P. LOL.

  18. #39
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    The upper limit is time.

  19. #40
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Are you assuming that genetic anomalies are symmetric?
    No, I'm assuming that genetic anomalies are present in varying degrees, because that's true of every other human ability in addition to the processing of music.
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  20. #41
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    True? That's assuming that genetics determine musical prowess. I disagree.

  21. #42
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Of course its both nature and nurture. Environment acting on genetic potentials. And the percentage of which influences what varies on any individual.

    In big generalities, I'd guesstimate most of our traits are 1/4 inherited, 1/4 heard/seen,appreciated, and 50% practiced. And the earlier its motivationally practiced, the better able to take advantage of any inherent tendencies. Our brains are pretty elastic up to age 6 and then become fully myelinized and tracts become more fixed.

    I'd guess too that of what's genetic in regards to multifactorial personality traits, 1/4 comes from pop, 1/4 comes from Mom, and 50% is a completely new unique combo not in common with either parent. Then how the environment interacts on that and at what age determines what sprouts out the most.
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  22. #43

    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    True? That's assuming that genetics determine musical prowess. I disagree.
    What do you believe genetics do determine? Can a man with an IQ of 75 study really hard and someday become a genius? I'd think not, but by your logic, he could. All brains are not equal.

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  24. #44
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Why does he have an IQ of 75?

    Skills are only inherited if parent teaches child.

  25. #45
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Why does he have an IQ of 75?

    Skills are only inherited if parent teaches child.
    We're not talking inheriting skills, that would be silly.

    We're talking about inheriting the potential for achievement, once skills are taught, and enough work is done to develop the potential. A person with an IQ of 75 has less potential for becoming a leader in the field of quantum physics than a person with an IQ of 140.
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  26. #46
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Skills are inherited and that's not silly at all.

    How did Ms. Quantum Physics get in her field? Practice. Maybe her parents taught her some things as well. Someone did. She learned and practiced. A lot.

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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    It has been stated in many interesting and articulate forms, but I do believe that the third component in this specific conversation is a nurturing influence. My father had musical ability, but what I believe had an equally great impact on me was his love of music and willingness to let me pick up his instruments. He had a 1947 000-18 Martin that he would lean against the couch. After I got started playing in '62, he gifted me one of those often seen Stella parlor guitars for $18 that now sell for $180. We would sit on the back porch and he would call out chord changes to me as he sang and played so I could back him with rhythm. He taught me chord structure, and concepts such as Tonic, Dominant and Subdominant. Two years later, at 10 years old, he was encouraging me as I learned Beatles songs and I began to sing and play in my own right. It didn't hurt that I took violin in school and played in the orchestra. His nurturing influence provided me with the desire to become an entertainer and I was able to do so throughout my life. His nurture and my strong interest coupled with the drive to learn took me on my own musical journey that opened so many doors.
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Actually aptitudes are inherited, skills are learned with the help of aptitudes.

    My paternal grandpa played mandolin and I remember drooling over his old Gibson A.

    My maternal grandma played piano for silent theaters, and later for churches.

    My mom and dad were mostly a-musical, but they didn't discourage us kids. My oldest brother is a concert violinist/viola-st.

    My oldest son sings and plays guitar and bass fluently, his mom (my wife) plays guitar and sings wonderfully. My youngest son is a computer programmer/analyst like his dad.

    It's in the genes.
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  30. #49

    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilliam View Post
    Skills are inherited and that's not silly at all.

    How did Ms. Quantum Physics get in her field? Practice. Maybe her parents taught her some things as well. Someone did. She learned and practiced. A lot.
    Maybe our definitions of "inherited" are different. I am using it in the biological sense. By my definition, inheritance is when the 'special sauce' (genes) that make someone an individual are biologically passed down through chromosomes to offspring. This is 101 level biology. Genes carry all of the information that physically makes us - brain size, eye color, diseases, your hair, the length of your member, etc. Even psychological traits are passed down in this way. This is something that has been studied ad infinitum, and isn't widely disputed. In a physical sense, one's DNA is who we are. In a more psychological sense, ones DNA is who we can be.

    You seem to be using "inherited" to mean someone passing down knowledge of a skill, which is something completely different. That's called "teaching". Ms. Quantum Physics first had to have the prerequisite, inherited, DNA to get any value out of study and practice in that field. She can do more with a larger brain than a smaller brain. No measure of study can change that. Just as with music, we must have the prerequisite DNA to get any value out of our pursuits.

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  32. #50
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: In The Family Genes?

    My Dad was over 6'2" and a college basketball star. My Mom was 5'2".

    No matter how much I practiced basketball with Dad and others as a kid, I never grew over 6 feet. I got pretty darn good but I was never going to be a star. Some 6'6" guy who has never seen a basketball before but wasnt a spass would easily whip me in a basketball game with just a little practice no matter how many years I'd played or how well coached I was or how young I started. Genetics. But I'd have a chance to outplay someone 6 foot maybe if I worked hard enough and they didnt. Nurture.

    These things are always both. Genetics sets some parameters upon which environment can influence greatly but only up to a degree.

    Fortunately, music isn't always a competition. In art, there are just some things that only that individual can create as a result of his nature and nurture.
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