Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

  1. #1
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Orgiva, Spain
    Posts
    1,439

    Default 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Hi everyone

    I have not posted in a while.

    The other day I sent one of my completed A-5 mandolins to Sydney to a prospective buyer. This A-5 mandolin had a Red Spruce top and a Curly Maple back. Both top and back were graduated to pretty much standard specs. The finish was french polish. A lot of work and care went into the graduations. The tone bars were pared back as per the current conventions. He tried it out and gave me feedback that it was too dry for his taste.

    I had an Ellis A-5 once with this tonal balance but it lacked the volume and projection in a jam setting. No doubt Tom has his preferred methods. The Pava A-5 I also had was like my A-5 mandolin, a bit dry but still a nice tone.

    I am wondering if anyone else has had this and how they got it to sound 'wetter' with more sweetness and roundness.
    Nic Gellie

  2. #2
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    I'm a repairman, not a builder, but I would guess that a softer maple would be rounder and fuller. You would probably loose a bit of high end, though. To get one thing, you have to give up another-- I found this out from working on violins [which I still don't understand real well after 20 or 30 years].

    You might try a rosewood bridge top on the current mandolin, or inlay a piece of bone into an ebony bridge top.

  3. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  4. #3
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Out of curiosity, did the prospective buyer go into detail about what he meant by "dry?" The reason I ask is that I think a lot of people have different meanings for tone terminology. To me, "dry" means the mandolin has a very strong fundamental note. On the other end of the spectrum (I think) is "complex." "Wet" could work too. To me, "complex" means the mandolin has stronger harmonic frequencies. And mandolins of course exist somewhere on a continuum between dry and complex. I think only synthesizers are capable of producing a fundamental note without any harmonic frequencies.

    I actually prefer very dry mandolins (dry and thumpy), but they're hard to find. I've played a few (most notable was a 50's Gibson that Randy Wood regraduated), but I've never actually owned a mandolin that I consider to be "dry enough."

  5. The following members say thank you to Walt for this post:


  6. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    , but I've never actually owned a mandolin that I consider to be "dry enough."
    I think that can be said for martini's too.

    A red spruce top takes a long time to break in and may change with playing. My Italian spruce top took years to break in. The fit of the bridge, the saddle wood. I have made a different saddle and changed the sound of a mandolin significantly.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pops1 For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Orgiva, Spain
    Posts
    1,439

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Out of curiosity, did the prospective buyer go into detail about what he meant by "dry?" The reason I ask is that I think a lot of people have different meanings for tone terminology. To me, "dry" means the mandolin has a very strong fundamental note. On the other end of the spectrum (I think) is "complex." "Wet" could work too. To me, "complex" means the mandolin has stronger harmonic frequencies. And mandolins of course exist somewhere on a continuum between dry and complex. I think only synthesizers are capable of producing a fundamental note without any harmonic frequencies.

    I actually prefer very dry mandolins (dry and thumpy), but they're hard to find. I've played a few (most notable was a 50's Gibson that Randy Wood regraduated), but I've never actually owned a mandolin that I consider to be "dry enough."
    Walt,

    Yes he did. He wanted a sweeter more rounded tone in a mandolin. Yes complex could go with being wetter. I did ask the prospective buyer what mandolin he really liked. He had an F5 with a European Spruce top some years ago. So when I pointed that out we agreed that he should try one with a European Spruce top which I have just made and is set up in the white. Yes the tone colour is more complex with the European Spruce right out of the box. I agree that Red Spruce mandolin take years to mellow. My mandolins have plenty of punch and projection just lacking a bit on the complexity side.

    I am thinking of trying a different maple back to change the tonal response overall. Any ideas on what works well with Red Spruce are also welcome. Red Maple perhaps. I heard that is what Gibson instruments use for their backs.
    Nic Gellie

  9. #6
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    I really dont think its the wood choice. Who knows what he means by wetter. More reverb? Spray some water on it?

  10. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  11. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    If you want to change wood to change sound, change the saddle, make if from a different piece of ebony. A mandolin I had just didn't sound the way I wanted, made a new saddle, capped one with bone, made one from bone. Decided to sell the mandolin. Just before I was going to send it to the buyer I made a new ebony saddle, WOW, it was exactly the sound I was looking for. I wanted to pay the buyer to forget the sale, didn't tho. Even if you change the weight of the saddle/bridge it can make a difference. Some things to try that are less invasive than a new back.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  12. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    4,881

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    As most of us know, strings and picks do make a difference...I have to use different picks on all four mandolins to get them to sound like I like them to sound....And I have heard that the thickness of the finish also makes a difference, I can`t say for sure though since I am not a builder but I have thinned some mandolin finishes in the past and it did make a difference, a lot of work for the results that I got though...I do agree with Pops that red spruce takes a while to "open up"

    Willie

  13. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,633

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Maybe the buyer wants an oval hole.

  14. The following members say thank you to Dale Ludewig for this post:

    Ken 

  15. #10

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Do you think this guy could find the perfect mandolin sound if he walked into a shop with thirty or so? I would not want to be making a mandolin for someone's tone they hear in their head.

    Now if you played on ten Ellis mandolins, and liked them all given the nature of wood, there shouldn't be a problem ordering one custom made for you.

    Certainly experiment with wood, but nailing what someone wants according to a subjective description is problematic.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  16. #11
    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Lebanon, Ct
    Posts
    506

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Slightly detune one string of each pair. That is how you get a wetter sound. They do it with squeezeboxes all the time.

  17. #12
    Registered User Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    In Illinois, halfway between here and there.
    Posts
    584

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    I find that a lighter set of strings, I use D'Addario J-73's, gives me more overtones. My very limited personal experience doesn't support this, but I understand that X bracing can give a richer (wetter?) response.
    Peace

  18. #13
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Orgiva, Spain
    Posts
    1,439

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Just a note to say that I didn't make the mandolin specifically for him. I actually sent two mandolins up to him and both were deemed as not having acceptable 'wet' tone. I think I know what he means. I just think that the tone he wants cannot be achieved with Red Spruce, particularly new red Spruce, perhaps it can be done with European Spruce.

    My reference mandolins at home are a Collings MT and a Northfield model M, the Model M being the drier of the two. Both have Engelmann Spruce tops which give that slightly warmer tone right out of the box. My mandolins are closer to the Northfield than the Collings. I am wondering if I should leave a bit more wood on the top plate to get a more complex maybe rounder tone. It has got me thinking on how to tweak the tone to get what the customer wants. Interestingly, my border collie 'Dorje' has a reaction to some of my mandolins when I play them. He howls and carries on. He has less of a reaction to the one with the European Spruce top. Maybe he likes the tone of that one better.
    Nic Gellie

  19. #14
    Mandolin & Mandola maker
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Bega NSW, Australia
    Posts
    1,425

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Sweeter and more rounded and with more sustain is how some people have described my A5 mandolins, and I would agree with them. Maybe I should send him one of mine! Why they are "wetter" I don't know, but then I came from playing an oval hole Gibson for many years. What species of Maple did you use or the back? Sugar Maple gives me more fundamental and greatest clarity, while European Maple gives a sweeter more complex tone. However, the sweetest and most rounded tone in an A5 I have got is from Red Spruce and Tasmanian Myrtle, but that may be too much non traditional for your customer. Personally I think that whether the tone is dry or wet is down to how you make them rather than the wood choice. How to make your's wetter, you would probably have to change a few things in how you build them, but what to change I dunno. I don't think changing strings, saddle, picks etc is going to make enough difference. Maybe he does want an oval hole.
    Peter Coombe - mandolins, mandolas and guitars
    http://www.petercoombe.com

  20. The following members say thank you to peter.coombe for this post:


  21. #15
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    If you still care, I would ask what kind and brand of mandolin he is playing right now and what it is he likes about it and what he doesn’t. Maybe he has played some mandolin that he loved that he has in mind. Or maybe it was on a rainy day. Then again it might be hopeless.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  22. #16

    Default Re: 'Wetter' tone A-5 mandolins

    Build the mandolins that sound the way you think they should sound.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •