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Thread: Why keys of B and B flat?

  1. #101
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    Personally I draw the line at E flat and A flat and D flat. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. I don't have to play a break on every song.
    I assume you are not playing jazz? You'd be drinking a lot of coffee.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I play along with (internet) radio a lot, and most jazz programming does not take me past Bb most of the time, with some Eb thrown in. Lots of F major, plenty of C. I find some rock and blues guitarists like to play in Jimi Hendrix Eb, that is with the guitars tuned down a half step. (Can't they just use lighter strings?)

    The stream that carries Folk Alley gives me a lot of singer-songwriters that seem prone to capo indulgence, offering not only Eb/Ab but Gb and Db as very common. Phooey on those lame singers that can't handle a half step, but I can handle their keys fine.

    In Bluegrass, B is fine key for that bluesy sound, riffing in sort-of B minor, which uses the open D string, the open A, and the E of course. It's awkward for a happy-major-key sound but lots of BG is leavened with the blues/jazz scales and B is a cool sound, even if Monroe said "There ain't nothing natural about B natural". Second finger on the G string for the tonic is strong, as is index finger on the A for tonic. Maybe it's the 4th finger tonic on the E that annoys people.

    I like the contrast that comes from song orders that move from one key to another with attention to the relation between the songs. Different keys can be exploited for that effect.
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  5. #103

    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Mark, thanks, I will look into those things you mentioned.

  6. #104

    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Actually, before pitch standards of A440, pitch was both higher AND lower than modern pitch:

    https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html

    "In the fifteenth century Arnold Schlick of Heidelberg, gave us the pitch of the time as being A.502. An Organ in Hepusdat dated 1351 with a pitch of A505 Scholars who have studied historical instruments claim that the pitch of the note "A" in the seventeenth century may have varied from 373.7 Hz to 402.9 Hz. "

    https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf

    'To take Germany prior to 1600 as an example, organ pitch there is thought to
    have varied from a high of A=567 Hz for the first simple pipe organs of the Middle Ages
    to a low of A=377 Hz for the early modern German organ around 1511.1"

    http://capionlarsen.com/history-pitch/

    " For example, an English pitchpipe from 1720 plays the A above middle C at 380 Hz, while the organs played by Johann Sebastian Bach in Hamburg, Leipzig and Weimar were pitched at A=480 Hz, a difference of around four semitones. In other words, the A produced by the 1720 pitchpipe would have been at the same frequency as the F on one of Bach’s organs."

    There was also "high" and "low" pitch band instruments:

    "In Germany, the bands and orchestras in the mid- to late 1800’s played in a pitch where A=440 Hz.Eb vs Bb This is the standard “low pitch” of today (which later became known as “American Standard Pitch” when it finally came to use in the US). However, at the same time, bands and orchestras in France, England and the US were playing in “high pitch” (A=452.5 Hz). In fact, in the US, “military high pitch” was even higher at A=457 Hz. Around the turn of the century, the use of low pitch became more common in the US, France and England. However, as it hadn’t completely replaced high pitch, brass horns were often offered with slides to allow the player to play in either pitch, depending on what was required and what pitch the other instruments were in. In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians formally adopted A=440 as the “official” pitch for the US, and it became known as “American Standard Pitch”."

    And there was something called Chorton and kammerton, too. @ different pitches in the same locale.

    https://www.idrs.org/publications/co....1.Bukoff.html

    "The variants in pitch are labeled, Kammerton/ Cammerton ("chamber pitch") and Chorton ("church pitch") and are used in connection with the pitch level of a specific organ. "

    http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/tu...-baroque-times

    "In fact there are two regular Baroque Pitches, but you would never guess that from modern recording using 'Baroque' Pitch. Chorton, and Kammerton. Chorton is higher than modern pitch and Kammerton is lower. They are basically a tone apart,"

    So it's not as simple as thinking that singers in the past were at a lower pitch. Pitch was all over the place.
    Awesome info! I had no idea there was such a wide variation in the standard pitches, or so many of them. Fascinating stuff.

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  8. #105
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    Awesome info! I had no idea there was such a wide variation in the standard pitches, or so many of them. Fascinating stuff.
    When I learned this some years ago, I was as surprised as you. I had known that many Early Music groups tuned down, but that was about it.

    Then you find out that there were so many variations in pitch, you understand why we came to a standard of A440.

    And while we're at it, A432 or whatever is NOT spiritually better, nor was a Nazi plot, as some internet myths would have you believe.

    https://jakubmarian.com/the-432-hz-v...piracy-theory/

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  10. #106
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Sounds like bluegrass musicians before electronic tuners, everyone had their own "standard".

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Whew! And I thought I was finally getting a handle on things cuz I'm now learning to play White Dove in F instead of D, where I'd always played it previously! It reminds me of just how poorly I play when I come to realize how many other bluegrass and string-band mandolin players have this sort of facility in keys other than G,D,C, and A (and sometimes I'm doubtful of my facility even in those keys....) So little time, so much to learn, but thankfully, with music, there is a dumb-down factor so that even a novice can enjoy playing it.

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  13. #108

    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?" I made some pretty bad music on a few of those. Ted's book, and my experience on electric bass, where the only open string I ever struck (unless reaching for or drinking a beer) was low E, really sank home. And usually, I would drink with my right hand, so the hammer ons were not open strings....low pressure gigs. I could walk a 6th pattern with left hand, and self medicate with my right.

    The singer gets to decide the key, I think. If you are not the singer, you are part of the show. We have to be ready to play our part. Just let me work on Take 5 in Em instead of Ebm. I'll get to Ebm sooner or later - or tune down.
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  15. #109
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by RickPick View Post
    Whew! And I thought I was finally getting a handle on things cuz I'm now learning to play White Dove in F instead of D, where I'd always played it previously! It reminds me of just how poorly I play when I come to realize how many other bluegrass and string-band mandolin players have this sort of facility in keys other than G,D,C, and A (and sometimes I'm doubtful of my facility even in those keys....) So little time, so much to learn, but thankfully, with music, there is a dumb-down factor so that even a novice can enjoy playing it.
    Enjoyment is the key. More important than other issues.

    But it is a good idea to take a simple tune, and play it in every key. All of them...G...Ab..A..Bb...B...C...Db....D..and so on

    Supposedly that was one way Charlie Parker got so good on sax. He'd take a tune and learn to play it in all 12 (some say 15) keys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
    I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?"
    Well, on one hand, we all should be able to play in any key at a moment's notice...but really, for a show? a half step? either way?

    I always thought a show should be as set as possible, other than solos. It's a SHOW, not a jam session or a coffee house open mike.

  16. #110

    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I agree. That was him, not me. I don't (won't) play with him any more, for more reasons than that.

    Just came back from seeing Arlo Guthrie. Very enjoyable, no great musicianship but superb songs and presence. He made it look like it was off the cuff, but I think every song choice and most of the patter was carefully scripted.
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  18. #111
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
    He made it look like it was off the cuff, but I think every song choice and most of the patter was carefully scripted.
    Arlo is definitely a consummate pro. I've seen a few performances live and many videotaped, and it appears that his material is "scripted" in the same sense any great comedian's material would be. While he may ad lib a bit with embellishments and delivery, his key phrases and pauses, etc. are repeated nearly verbatim from show to show. The stories play as well as a well worn leather jacket wears.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
    I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?" ...

    The singer gets to decide the key, I think. If you are not the singer, you are part of the show.
    When a singer has to push the limits of his voice for a given song with a big pitch range, it can depend on what shape his voice is in at short notice. If, OTOH, he is writing his own songs so he is just barely able to sing them, that's kind of pathetic indeed.
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  21. #113
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I played with a singer who liked to sing in F. I persuaded her to do a "Bob Wills key shift" to D for some of the instrumental breaks - quite effective. Then back to F for the vocals.
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  23. #114
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    I played with a singer who liked to sing in F. I persuaded her to do a "Bob Wills key shift" to D for some of the instrumental breaks - quite effective. Then back to F for the vocals.
    Most of the modulations on Bob Wills records are between neighboring keys along the circle of fifths, e.g., Bb to F (vocal version of Maiden's Prayer). The big exception is New San Antonio Rose which modulates from D to Ab (via F7, Bb7, Eb7), and (IIRC) back, with just an A7.

    The natural modulation from F to D would be via an A7 chord, not sure about the best way back. Years ago I wanted to work up a slightly neurotic version of Tennessee Waltz. I started in D, then realized that I had far too many songs in that key, so I worked it out in F (arguably the easiest and most versatile key on the mandolin), then worked it into a medley: TW in F, Missouri Waltz, in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. What's missing is a number in G; that would cover the three most common modulations.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    For a nice play-along exercise (in Bluegrass) I suggest Doyle Lawson at the Cannery on YouTube. Not a single tune in D or G! The keys are B (too fast for me), Eb, Bb, C, F (a cappella), Bb, and A (again too fast). As far as I can see Scott Vestal does not use a capo on the 2nd and 6th tune - these keys, and that tempo, are a nice way to get away from Scruggs style clichés on the banjo.

    "Too fast" means I cannot improvise in a rhytmically interesting fashion on these songs. I could certainly prepare some solos on each, but I don't enjoy doing that. I want to discover stuff in playing.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Sounds like bluegrass musicians before electronic tuners, everyone had their own "standard".
    Before electronic tuners there were tuning forks. I’ve used them for 60 years. They give an a’ (440 Hz) for reference and they’ve been used by players in just about any genre. Only Bluegrassers don’t know how to handle them? Are they all tone deaf?

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Ralph, yes, tuning forks have been in use for centuries, but when I began playing fifty-some-odd years ago in Watson, La. (not bluegrass), no one I knew had a tuning fork. We got one at school when we got a band teacher and started a school band.

    Instead, those of us who had a reference usually had a pitch pipe, or used a harmonica, a piano, or another musician we were playing with to tune to. Just because the 440 Hz pitchfork has been around for so long doesn't negate what mandoplumb says.

    Ricky Skaggs once asked Earl Scruggs how the Blue Grass Boys tuned; he said that when he was there, they always just tuned to Lester's guitar. I don't think Lester's guitar was always tuned to A 440 - probably a better chance of that in the studio than on the road, and maybe not always in the studio.

    I think tunings have standardized a lot more now that people can own a "decent" or at least operational electronic tuner for $2 and up.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Before electronic tuners there were tuning forks. I’ve used them for 60 years. They give an a’ (440 Hz) for reference and they’ve been used by players in just about any genre. Only Bluegrassers don’t know how to handle them? Are they all tone deaf?
    Quite frankly I resent the statement that bluegrass musicians can't use a tuning fork. As has been stated we just tuned to each other because that was what everyone else was doing so you wasn't going to be in tune with them regardless. Don't know why the electronic tuners caught on, maybe people that had problems tuning to one note ( tuning fork) Started the " fad" but I do know that we blue grassers are closer to other bands now than before electronic tuners. Just as a side note I used to tune my guitar to a florescent light. In 60 cycle electricity that buzz is a B tuning to that is almost as hard as tuning to a tuning fork.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Electronic tuners were a fad maybe in the 70s. I bought one at some point just for the novelty of having one. They were expensive. I believe the reason everyone uses them now is because they can afford them and they’re convenient.no matter, I just disagree that everybody but graders used tuning forks. We tuned to each other, and when alone we oftener tuned just by ear and memory regardless of the genre.
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I despise typing on a phone with my thumb. Let the spelling errors stand.
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  32. #121
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Simple answer...because it's often up to the vocalist to choose the key that best suits their voice. Tottle likely put those in there to get you familiar with those keys because they do frequently get called for vocal numbers. Despite being a rather annoying key to play in, Bb is actually a pretty comfortable key for a lot of folks to sing in, if they dare to give it a shot.

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  34. #122
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wright View Post


    even if Monroe said "There ain't nothing natural about B natural". Second finger on the G string for the tonic is strong, as is index finger on the A for tonic. Maybe it's the 4th finger tonic on the E that annoys people.


    He too? From Pete Martin's theory book:

    Chapter 8
    B Major Scale and Chord Arpeggio
    I once heard Western Swing fiddle giant Johnny Gimble say “There’s nothing natural about B natural.” By this he was referring to playing in the key of B (called B natural), a key most Western Swing players never play. However, Bluegrass musicians play in B extensively. They know how important the key of B is to their music.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    Also if you want to play a lot of songs in relative minor keys you need to know the key of Bb to play in Gm, F for Dm and Eb for Cm.
    For example Lonesome Moonlight Waltz in Dm
    Rob
    To my ears, the Moonlight Waltz is in F. To be sure it starts in d minor, and there's an A7 in the middle, but from bar 12 to 13 it switches to a full ending in F (C7-F). There never is a full d minor ending! The bridge starts on Bb, the IV chord in F (not the VI chord in d min!), and leads up to C7, the V7 chord in F, followed by an A7 leading back to a reprise of bars 9-16. You could say that about half of the tune is in d min, but the main key really is F.

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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Orr View Post
    Simple answer...because it's often up to the vocalist to choose the key that best suits their voice. Tottle likely put those in there to get you familiar with those keys because they do frequently get called for vocal numbers. Despite being a rather annoying key to play in, Bb is actually a pretty comfortable key for a lot of folks to sing in, if they dare to give it a shot.
    Several of Tottle's examples are transcriptions of recorded solos. I suppose he chose the tunes to demonstrate a variety of approaches to the mandolin, including the keys most commonly used. And it's important to get acquainted with these keys in 1st position to get a feel for their relationships and their respective possibilities - shoving scale and chord forms up and down the neck is no big deal. Bb (along with F) to me is perhaps the most natural key of them all, with tons of possibilities. But, as I said before, you only know if you've tried.

  37. #125
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    Default Re: Why keys of B and B flat?

    I used to hate those keys, too. Now, after a couple years of hearing any key called at jams, I've learned the scale shapes for whatever finger happens to land on the root note (an incredibly valuable skill). Learn to use your pinky!! Sooner, the better. You'll get it, just keep trying!
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