Why keys of B and B flat?

[ralph johansson]

I've already mentioned Sailors Hornpipe. My main reference for fiddle tunes, as a beginner on the mandolin, was Howdy Forrester's Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style, which has two pieces in B; High Level Hornpipe and Clarinet Polka (a duet with Jimmy Riddle's harmonica).

Sorry, I meant Bb here.

[ralph johansson]

I've been around good banjo players 50 years or more, and seen many professionals in concert. Don Reno is the only one I've seen play those keys without a capo. Of course I'm talking bluegrass banjo players.

Well, I've played with a few banjo players; among my numbers was a blues original in E with a sudden switch to G which the banjo player of our group handled without capoing or retuning. C is certainly accessible open, in G tuning, possibly after retuning the d string - there's also an open C tuning: g-c g c e (not sure which of the two Scruggs used on Toy Heart). Then there's also the D tuning (5th string in f# or a) but to my ears it sounds very special.

Of course, almost all banjo players would use a capo in A, Bb or B.

[Mandoplumb]

Well, I've played with a few banjo players; among my numbers was a blues original in E with a sudden switch to G which the banjo player of our group handled without capoing or retuning. C is certainly accessible open, in G tuning, possibly after retuning the d string - there's also an open C tuning: g-c g c e (not sure which of the two Scruggs used on Toy Heart). Then there's also the D tuning (5th string in f# or a) but to my ears it sounds very special.Of course, almost all banjo players would use a capo in A, Bb or B.

Wit very few exceptions ( certain songs) all banjo players use a capo in E a few in C ( depending on song) and a lot in D. Bluegrass banjo players ( which I said was what I had most experience with) as a rule seldom retune, that's old time that uses a different tuning for each song. BG banjo pickers have enough trouble with the one tuning. Even Don Reno played most of his driving instrumentals in G even though he took breaks in any key without a capo. Truth is a banjo just sounds "'grassier" in open chords.

[doublestoptremolo]

I play banjo, and I usually do the following:

G, A, B-flat, B: play out of G position open or with capo

C: either capo on 5th fret and play out of G or lower the fourth string to C. I think J.D. did "Toy Heart" in drop-C (gCGBD), capoed at 4 (in E). Don't know what Earl did but typically bluegrass banjo players don't use the double C tuning (gCGCD) that much.

D, E, F: play out of D in open G tuning with or without a capo, but capoing the 5th string. The great benefit of this is you have the low tonic note on the fourth string, which you wouldn't have if you played out of C in G tuning capoed.

Like Mandoplumb notes, the driving, grassier sounds are more available in the G formation, at least for me. The slower the song the less likely I'll capo at all.

[doublestoptremolo]

I think Willie's advice is spot on. The more you use closed positions, it becomes a more matter of intervals and less of keys. You know where the tonic is, where the fifth below that is, where the third is, etc. You know the notes of the scale that correspond to the chords. So playing a break in D-flat or G-flat isn't that much harder than playing in D or G.

[UsuallyPickin]

Personally I draw the line at E flat and A flat and D flat. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. I don't have to play a break on every song. Not a question of anything other than to me it is more trouble than it's worth. Yes moving around in closed positions on an instrument tuned in fifths makes anything accessible. But keep in mind a capo in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing . . . . .R/

[Bertram Henze]

But keep in mind a capo in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing . . . . .R/

Capos don't transpose songs. People do.
(now where is my corner...)

[Jess L.]

Personally I draw the line at E flat and A flat and D flat. When those keys pop up I go get coffee. ...

I'd always wondered why there were so many hymns and religious songs in A flat, seemed annoying and illogical, why would anyone design tunes in such a freaky weird key?

But it turns out there were practical reasons for it after all, historically, seems it didn't have anything to do with voice at all, but rather was a concession to players of a different musical instrument, the organ - according to a poster named "sfp1954" at The Organ Forum:

"The easiest bass pedals to play 1 and 5 on (oom pah oom pah) are the black pedals.
In addition the left foot naturally swings forward and lands on the A-Flat making it the easiest bass pedal to locate.
So that makes keys like Ab, Gb and Db the easiest to play simple bass lines on. ...
"If you've grown up playing blues on the piano it does seem totally awkward but it makes sense when viewed from an organ perspective."

I haven't played an organ since a zillion years ago (my piano teacher also had an organ which I briefly took a few lessons on just for something different) and I'd forgotten they even had pedals until I saw that post, but now it kinda makes sense I guess... at least for all the older music that was written when organs were more common.

But now that organs are not exactly common, and guitars etc are common, it seems silly for anyone to insist on using the 'original' keys as if those were somehow 'better' (unless the vocalist just can't handle it in any other key). Ab, Db, etc may have been better for the main instrument of an earlier era, but now, not so much. Organs - all those flat keys. Guitars - key of G, C, D, A, etc.

[ProfChris]

Don't forget the problem of multiple singers, particularly singing harmony. I attempt harmonies with my friend Cat, and we have a song which is manageable (but just a bit low for me) in C, and manageable (but just a bit high for her) in D. I should probably rearrange it for Db (or C# if I really want to deter anyone else from playing along).

[Jess L.]

Don't forget the problem of multiple singers, particularly singing harmony. ...

That's a good point.

[Mark Gunter]

I'd always wondered why there were so many hymns and religious songs in A flat
...

But now that organs are not exactly common, and guitars etc are common, it seems silly for anyone to insist on using the 'original' keys

May be a local or geographical thing, as well as a denominational thing, but it seems to me that the only place where organs are common for public singing accompaniment is in churches where the old hymns and religious songs are commonly sung. Organs are not exactly uncommon in churches. Churches without organists who use the old hymns and songs usually have pianists, who seem to have little difficulty with those "organ keys".

Seems to me that the churches that prefer more contemporary guitar band music play more contemporary songs, with the occasional nod to an old hymn.

I don't spend much time in church these days nor sample a great many churches, denominations, etc. but it doesn't seem strange at all to me that churches who use the old hymns also prefer the old traditional instrumentation in their services.

[T.D.Nydn]

I don't see the problem playing in Ab (G#),,if you play with closed positions,Ab is one of best Keyes ,major or minor,everything is based on the first fret across all strings,once you get used to it,it is not that hard...

[Beanzy]

I get a lot of Gm (& Dm) tunes when playing Nordic fiddle tunes, those being related to Bb (&F). They do lend themselves to droning on the higher open string from the melody to give quite an interesting sound.
I also come across them when playing east Galway style tunes from fiddlers like Paddy Fahey & Mairtín Byrnes.
I wondered why there was this pocket in the middle with no seeming connection to anywhere else, then found Caoimhin MacAoidh had an interesting take on why that occurred;”Paddy Fahey often told me that during the end of the last century and the first decade or two of this century the local fiddlers of east Galway were always very anxious to play with the famed uileann piper Dinny Delaney. Dinney's chanter was pitched in B flat. Rather than tune the fiddles down to the chanter, the players regularly re-learned the tunes in flat keys to play with him without tuning down. As such, the local players became highly conversant in playing flat keys. When they started to compose themselves or re-arrange tunes in more common keys, they would often opt for playing them in flat keys as after only a few years, the "wistful flat key sound" was very much the aim of players.“ certainly seems like a plausible reason.

I really do like playing in Gm & F with drones. B isn’t really much of an issue if you just think ‘stick everything sharp’ & forget about it, I’ll sometimes just shift a 1/2 or whole position up and it feels like there’s nothing much different going on.

[Jess L.]

... Churches without organists who use the old hymns and songs usually have pianists, who seem to have little difficulty with those "organ keys". ...

What I've seen... You're right that a decent pianist has no problem with any of the keys, but there can be problems if someone (new pastor or whatever) comes in and tries to start a new worship band with guitars 'n' stuff - playing *along* with the existing pianist. Same hymns, no new material. So everyone has their capos deployed, oughta be ok...

The guitar chord book has all the songs in the same original *key* as the pianist's scores, *but* the guitar book chords (same publisher) are simplified, sometimes significantly different than the piano score. The pianist might be changing chords on every note in some songs (whether he was aware of it or not was another matter - he was just reading notes off the page), whereas the guitar strummers were busily playing the chords indicated in the guitar book, but the guitar chords don't match the piano chords except for only a small portion of each measure.

Result: clashy dissonance.

But I guess that's unrelated to 'weird' keys, it's just a problem with general musicianship (and printed publications of questionable usefulness).

... Seems to me that the churches that prefer more contemporary guitar band music play more contemporary songs, with the occasional nod to an old hymn. ...

This is one of the few instances where it would be nice to live in a more populated area, that had more choices. I've only seen two modern church bands in this entire county. Ironically, the most-modern music (drums, electric bass, guitars) was in the most-conservative church which isn't quite my cup of tea although the music was great. Another church has an accordion player who actually sounds quite nice, surprisingly, I wouldn't have thought so until I heard it. Anyway...

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks for the info, I couldn't speak to "geographical ... denominational" differences. I can say that when I attend services, I much prefer the old hymns and they could lose the guitars, wouldn't bother me at all. Unfortunately, living in Dallas for 30 years, that's not the trend. I can also enjoy a great band of rock musicians rocking out, but it seems the problem in Texas and much of Louisiana is the opposite of what you experience in the churches I've visited. The old hymns to organ or piano accompaniment takes a back seat to Contemporary Christian music, even if they have to pipe in backing tracks and forego the band. I love a service that plays the old hymns as I said, and use the band musicians for "special" music performances. I've played specials in churches myself in a variety of ways and styles. Give me the old time hymns and piano for the rest of the service. But then, I'm an old geezer, apparently, and the world belongs to the young folk.

[Mandoplumb]

Mark what you are describing is happening all over. I live in Va. And it's hard to find a church that playes the old great hymns. The fad now is 7-11 songs. They have 7 words you sing them 11 times.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Mark what you are describing is happening all over. I live in Va. And it's hard to find a church that playes the old great hymns. The fad now is 7-11 songs. They have 7 words you sing them 11 times.

Same here in Ohio. Been going pretty much every Sunday for 20 years to the same traditional-style church. (I won't name it here, but they're connected to the guy on the cylindrical oat-cereal container.) They used the hymnals when I started there. The books are still there in there wooden oak slots but rarely if ever opened.

Now it's those "7-11" songs you described with those seven words projected on a screen. And it seems the composers are really enamored with suspended chords. The "chants" as I call them are never resolved at the end. They just kind of leave you hanging there.

I put up with it for the sake of the youngsters. Now if I could just keep them off of my lawn!

[Timbofood]

There are still traditional churches using the 1940 hymnal and 1923 book of Common Prayer out there, look under “Anglican Catholic Church”.
Might take a few miles to get to a parish but, the old tradition is alive there.
I believe there are a couple in VA. Don’t know about Texas.
Current trends in church music tend to leave me cold but, I’m an old geezer too, many years on my knees as an acolyte at Mass have taken their toll.

[Jess L.]

... they could lose the guitars, wouldn't bother me at all. ...

Well... the ukulele-style guitar-strumming I can do without, but I do like to hear a good bass line if it's a talented bass player that knows how to make it groove. I would be willing to put up with a certain amount of at least semi-competent guitar-strumming if it meant that there'd be a possibility of having a good bass line somewhere in the background.

... Now it's those "7-11" songs you described with those seven words projected on a screen. ...

Projectors, eh, that's fancy. I've only seen that in one church, it was nice, easy to see and easy to follow. The rest have printed hymnbooks of one sort or another. Incidentally, the reason I bought a tablet a few years ago, is to put those hymns onto the tablet so we could read them - the printed hymnbooks had very small print that most people our age can't see without a darn magnifying glass. Not surprising that some of the other people there just sort of hummed along rather than actually singing words.

... never resolved at the end. They just kind of leave you hanging there. ...

One of the things I intensely dislike about many of the old songs in the hymnbooks I've seen around here, I mean the really old stuff from the 1600s or whatever, is that there are way too many sad dreary sounding minor keys, ugh so depressing sounding, I have come to hate that! Those old minor key songs always leave the listeners hanging on a sad eerie note, they never resolve to anything except more dismal minor chords. I'm not talking about modal stuff, but just pure straight minor keys.

I used to not have such a dislike of minor keys, they were ok once in a while and some of them I even liked somewhat, but after a solid several years of hearing those same depressing church songs every flippin' Sunday I just finally had enough of that minor key sound. Yes the choir was beautiful, they sounded like angels, but awfully sad angels in those dreary minor keys. I thought religion was supposed to give people hope, well we sure as heck weren't getting that vibe from some of that ancient music.

And the lyrics, a fair number of the songs are absolutely littered with obsolete words that no one uses anymore, sure one can sing them but what do they mean? Might as well be singing (or humming) in a foreign language, just a musical exercise rather than getting something out of the lyrics.

One song that I *do* like as far as the beautiful music, is "Come Thy Fount of Every Blessing", it's very pretty and I do understand the general idea of the lyrics as a positive message, but some of the words require a dictionary...

"Fount"? "Mount"? "Raise my ebenezer"? What the... ? No it's not double-entendre, although I'd bet that if there had been any young adults in the congregation (there wasn't) they would have thought so.

So us old folk can puzzle out some of the cryptic meanings by context, or as many do just choose to sing/hum the words even though they don't have a clue what half of it means, which is missing a great deal of the point of having lyrics in the first place. Many examples like that. IMO that stuff needs some updates or outright translations to keep it relevant and current otherwise it serves little purpose other than to turn people off and/or confuse them. IMO. If it could even turn off a pair of old folks like us, well I can easily understand why young folks wouldn't be overly impressed with it either, at least not as a steady diet.

I guess like anything else, it's a balance thing. Here there's an overabundance of old obsolete music, and (perhaps coincidentally) many nearly-empty churches as well. Apparently elsewhere in the world, from what y'all have said above, it's the opposite as far as the music. It'd be nice to have some of everything I suppose.

Edit:
People's definition of "old" or "traditional" varies. For my man, his idea of traditional hymns (which both of us like) is what I consider to be more modern stuff like "Will The Circle Be Unbroken", "I Love to Tell the Story", "I'll Fly Away", stuff like that. He doesn't like the ancient cryptic-lyric minor-key stuff either.

[Jim1hays]

I believe the devil himself is responsible for those keys plus someone once told me those are the keys most women sing in as well!

[Mandoplumb]

Jl277z to me it's common sense fount is short for fountain, mount short for mountain, ebenezer was a monument used for a "prayer tower". I know I'm different than a lot of people but when I see a word I don't know I try to find out what it means. The lyrics of a lot of songs, secular and religious are poetic and not used often in everyday speech, but I like them better than the stupid or vulgar lyrics used in a lot of today's commercial songs.

[Jess L.]

... to me it's common sense ... poetic ...

Well there's half the problem right there - I'm poetically challenged even with non-weird poetic words. In years past I was quite good at understanding complicated technical manuals and scientific writings, those were easy and that was my idea of "common sense" and reading enjoyment, but poetry always went straight over my head. I just always wondered why, if a writer had something to say, why they didn't just say it in plain language, instead of going to great lengths to disguise it behind a bunch of flowery decorative words. Maybe just to make stuff rhyme? But why do they have to rhyme, anyway?

Then someone clued me in that sometimes poets (and song writers, and fiction book writers) felt compelled to disguise their true meanings, so as to not be so obvious, in order to evade being hassled (or worse) by the authorities or whoever. Ok I'll buy that, that sounds like a valid reason to hide one's writings behind a smokescreen.

Ironically, my mother was a poet, and I could never make any sense of her poems either, although she didn't get too carried away with uncommon words - I vaguely recall she used stuff like "e'en" ("even" without the "v") but that's not outlandish (it even shows up in crossword puzzles, can't be too unusual). Still never could tell what her poems were actually about though. To a non-poet, a lot of poetry just looks like random words strung together to create a rhyme or a rhythm but rather short on actual meaning. It's not that I'm against poetry, rather that a lot of it is just beyond my comprehension.

... fount is short for fountain, mount short for mountain, ebenezer was a monument used for a "prayer tower" ...

Thanks! Er, wait, what's a "prayer tower"? Guess I will Google it sometime.

... when I see a word I don't know I try to find out what it means. ...

Yeah but the hard part is remembering everything, and finding places to make notes of all the things that need to be remembered, and then being able to access said notes at some point in the future when they're needed again. And then, after quickly refreshing one's memory, being able to remember the meanings long enough to get through the entire song with all 5 stanzas etc. (Gettin' old can definitely be challenging.)

... I like them better than the stupid or vulgar lyrics used in a lot of today's commercial songs.

Understood. I'm not a fan of "vulgar" lyrics either. They're not a new concept though, there were always a few raunchy songs even before rock-n-roll and even before jazz, although apparently not as common or as obvious as now.

[Jess L.]

I have a dumb question: When "standard pitch" got changed (to modern A440, and weren't there also other changes sometime earlier??), what if any effect did that have any on the keys that singers preferred? So if a lot of modern singers like, say, the key of B or Bb or whatever, what key would that have been under the older pitch standards? If I was 20 again I'd probably be able to calculate that, but alas my computational skills are not so great anymore either.

[Mark Gunter]

To a non-poet, a lot of poetry just looks like random words strung together to create a rhyme or a rhythm but rather short on actual meaning. It's not that I'm against poetry, rather that a lot of it is just beyond my comprehension.

Maybe some poetry is disguised messages as you mentioned, but I think some poetry is just clever use of language for the sake of being clever, or amusing ... or for painting verbal pictures and evoking certain emotions.

Have you tried reading Browning's My Last Duchess? Ivan Ivanovich? The Pied Piper of Hamelin? I don't think you can accuse Browning of being "short on meaning."

And if those leave you cold somehow, check out Jean Desprez by Robert W. Service, you can read it here: https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/jean-desprez/

Some of Service's poems are so lyrical that Country Joe McDonald put several of them to music and put out an album of them in 1971, including The Ballad of Jean Desprez.

And what about The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost? https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poe...road-not-taken

I couldn't imagine life without poetry - it would be like a life without art, without music, without color. The best prose is prose that borders on poetry. Just another opinion.

[DavidKOS]

I have a dumb question: When "standard pitch" got changed (to modern A440, and weren't there also other changes sometime earlier??), what if any effect did that have any on the keys that singers preferred? So if a lot of modern singers like, say, the key of B or Bb or whatever, what key would that have been under the older pitch standards? If I was 20 again I'd probably be able to calculate that, but alas my computational skills are not so great anymore either.

Actually, before pitch standards of A440, pitch was both higher AND lower than modern pitch:

https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html

"In the fifteenth century Arnold Schlick of Heidelberg, gave us the pitch of the time as being A.502. An Organ in Hepusdat dated 1351 with a pitch of A505 Scholars who have studied historical instruments claim that the pitch of the note "A" in the seventeenth century may have varied from 373.7 Hz to 402.9 Hz. "

https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf

'To take Germany prior to 1600 as an example, organ pitch there is thought to
have varied from a high of A=567 Hz for the first simple pipe organs of the Middle Ages
to a low of A=377 Hz for the early modern German organ around 1511.1"

http://capionlarsen.com/history-pitch/

" For example, an English pitchpipe from 1720 plays the A above middle C at 380 Hz, while the organs played by Johann Sebastian Bach in Hamburg, Leipzig and Weimar were pitched at A=480 Hz, a difference of around four semitones. In other words, the A produced by the 1720 pitchpipe would have been at the same frequency as the F on one of Bach’s organs."

There was also "high" and "low" pitch band instruments:

"In Germany, the bands and orchestras in the mid- to late 1800’s played in a pitch where A=440 Hz.Eb vs Bb This is the standard “low pitch” of today (which later became known as “American Standard Pitch” when it finally came to use in the US). However, at the same time, bands and orchestras in France, England and the US were playing in “high pitch” (A=452.5 Hz). In fact, in the US, “military high pitch” was even higher at A=457 Hz. Around the turn of the century, the use of low pitch became more common in the US, France and England. However, as it hadn’t completely replaced high pitch, brass horns were often offered with slides to allow the player to play in either pitch, depending on what was required and what pitch the other instruments were in. In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians formally adopted A=440 as the “official” pitch for the US, and it became known as “American Standard Pitch”."

And there was something called Chorton and kammerton, too. @ different pitches in the same locale.

https://www.idrs.org/publications/co....1.Bukoff.html

"The variants in pitch are labeled, Kammerton/ Cammerton ("chamber pitch") and Chorton ("church pitch") and are used in connection with the pitch level of a specific organ. "

http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/tu...-baroque-times

"In fact there are two regular Baroque Pitches, but you would never guess that from modern recording using 'Baroque' Pitch. Chorton, and Kammerton. Chorton is higher than modern pitch and Kammerton is lower. They are basically a tone apart,"

So it's not as simple as thinking that singers in the past were at a lower pitch. Pitch was all over the place.