schaller tuner fix ?

[tbrahan]

I have a 2005 A-style mandolin with what appear to be Schaller gold tuners. They don't look 12 years old, and might be replacements. Can't be sure. My problem is that they are getting progressively harder to turn. A couple are REALLY stiff.

I've read a bunch of threads about tuner maintenance, etc., and problems with
Schallers in general. I dissambled, cleaned and ran them in with lapping compound.
I reassembled and lubed with tri-flo. No improvement. They turn OK without string tension, a little stiff, but acceptable. Tuned to pitch they are horrible. They do hold tune.

I checked and lubed nut and bridge slots. That's not the problem.

The tuners were installed with the long bushing. I think this may be the problem. Maybe not a precise enough installation causing the shafts to bind. My first question is how can I be sure? There is a shiny ring around the shafts about where the bottom of the bushing is located. If it is the long bushing what is the fix? Can I just find a short set of bushings? Or am I looking at just replacing the tuners?

[Oliver A.]

Without seeing them in person it's difficult to give a precise diagnosis. I have a few questions for you. How do they turn when off the mandolin completely? Does the headstock taper in thickness? Are the tuners assembled correctly? I ask this last one because I recently ran into a mandolin where the tuners on one side were assembled incorrectly. The two shims should go under the cog, through the slot in the base-plate with the Mylar one making direct contact with the worm. In the photo below, someone had assembled one of the sets with the shim plates under the string post which caused the worm to be out of alignment with the cog.

[Dave Hanson]

Have a look at FRETS.COM Frank Ford is an expert on how to maintain and repair tuners.

Dave H

[Ivan Kelsall]

Dave Hanson has it :- http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...geartune3.html

I applied Frank Ford's tuner wisdom to the Schallers on my Weber & they work very smoothly indeed,
Ivan

[Tavy]

If they're turning OK off the instrument, and only binding up to pitch, then the most likely issue is misaligned post holes in the headstock.

Sometimes you can slacken off the screw holding the gear in place so there's a bit of slack/wobble in the post and that will fix things just fine. Sometimes though it actually makes things worse if the result is the pinion-gear being pushed even harder into the face of the worm gear. In that situation try tightening the screw extra hard so that the post can't physically lean over no matter what, they will be tight to turn, but won't get worse when up to pitch.

You could also check the position of the screw holes holding the tuner to the headstock - sometimes the tuners fit the headstock just fine, but tightening up the screws holding it in place push it out of alignment. Then you're looking at filling those holes and re-drilling. Make sure those screws are tight and there's no "wobble" in the tuner back plate, sometime over time they just get too loose to hold things properly in place any more.

[tbrahan]

Thanks for the quick responses. They are assembled correctly. The peghead is tapered. I don't see any obviously leaning posts, and when apart I don't see any obvious signs of excessive wear at any point of contact other than the rings around the post where they make contact with the bushing. I'll re-read Frank's article. They are acceptable but stiff off the mandolin. I'll try adjusting screw tension. Would a shorter bushing help?

[pops1]

A tapered headstock is harder to align the holes. I have instead of filling and redrilling, put smaller bushings in and shimmed the front with a thin piece of plastic packaging material. It moves the bushing back slightly and helps eliminate the binding.

[Tavy]

A tapered headstock is harder to align the holes. I have instead of filling and redrilling, put smaller bushings in and shimmed the front with a thin piece of plastic packaging material. It moves the bushing back slightly and helps eliminate the binding.

Yep, shimming can work well, especially if the holes are now too large for the bushing.

As for shorter bushings... maybe, given that the headstock is tapered, they will help, you won't know till you try.

[Oliver A.]

Thanks for the quick responses. They are assembled correctly. The peghead is tapered. I don't see any obviously leaning posts, and when apart I don't see any obvious signs of excessive wear at any point of contact other than the rings around the post where they make contact with the bushing. I'll re-read Frank's article. They are acceptable but stiff off the mandolin. I'll try adjusting screw tension. Would a shorter bushing help?

With tapered pegheads, the bushing holes must be drilled perpendicular to the back face of the peghead. When the bushings are seated correctly, the will show a slight gap at the rear side and be tight at the front side. If the bushings are square to the front face of the peghead, they can cause binding of the post and cause stress on the tuner geometry.
Shorter bushings can sometimes be of help if the holes have not been drilled correctly but not always, depending on the type of inaccuracy inherent in the holes.

When you drop in the tuners, they should slide in with very little effort. When the base plates are within a millimeter or two of being seated, they should still be straight and parallel to the back face of the peghead with no signs of warping or other stress. The last millimeter or two of travel should go in as easy as the initial setting in.

Once installed but before stringing up, they should turn the same as when they were off the mandolin or very close to it. Stringing will add a little more stiffness to the action but not much.

Schaller post spacing is 23mm between posts (center to center) and 69mm center to center of the #1 and #4 posts. Measure these spaces as accurately as you can and also run a straight edge along the edges of the bushings to try and determine if everything is aligned correctly. I have used dozens of sets of the old style Schallers with no issues except some minor inconsistencies in shaft tension.

[tbrahan]

Thanks again for the advice. Pops, just so I am clear, what do you call "front" and "back" when placing the shims? I'm going to check the alignment as Oliver has suggested, and try again to isolate the exact place where the binding is happening. Thanks again.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is a plastic "bearing" under the cog. Are they intact? Was it always hard to turn?

[pops1]

Thanks again for the advice. Pops, just so I am clear, what do you call "front" and "back" when placing the shims? I'm going to check the alignment as Oliver has suggested, and try again to isolate the exact place where the binding is happening. Thanks again.

By the front I mean toward the nut, it will push the bushing back so the gear is away from the worm.

[tbrahan]

That explains it, Pops. Keeps the worm and cog from being jammed together. I was thinkining in terms of the shaft binding against he bushing, but your explanation makes more sense considering what I'm feeling when truning the keys.

Mike, the plastic pieces are in good shape and installed correctly. These tuners have always been a little stiff, but the last month It has gotten intolerable. I keep trying to remember anything that could have caused the change, but I can't think of anything.

[tbrahan]

Pops, what smaller bushings do you use? What plastic? About how much do you try to shift the bushing rearward? Is there enogh "meat" in the Schaller bushing to take a little off the backside and shim the front?

[pops1]

The tuners I used came with a smaller bushing. I would consider leaving the bushing alone and maybe carving the back, away from the nut, of the bushing hole slightly so the bushing can be moved back with a spacer. It doesn't need to be much, and you may have to do it a couple of times. The clear plastic that I am talking about comes with most products covering the product. It also comes in many thicknesses so starting thin and maybe going thicker. I only shim half of the bushing, the half toward the nut.

Just was at the shop and the Schaller bushings are quite thick, you could take a fair amount of material off the bushing and not hurt a thing. Might be better than changing the mandolin. You will lose the spline off the back tho and with a tapered headstock it's hard to keep the bushings against the face as it is.

[tbrahan]

Stew Mac put their Grover 309's on sale, so I ordered a set. Slid right into the old Schaller bushings and they are smooth as can be. Really a night and day difference. The mandolin sounds better because I can more accurately tune the pairs. I keep looking over the Schallers and I can't find anything wrong with them. They just don't have any play in the post gear connection. The holes are just enough off - maybe a few thousandths - to cause the binding. The Grovers have that compression washer between post and plate that gives a little leeway without being the least sloppy. I wonder if a compression washer woul help the Schallers?

One thing for sure. The Grovers are way clunkier than the Schallers. My peghead is on the small side and almost wasn't big enough to keep the bottom plates from hanging off. The shafts hang out farther and take some getting used to. Not nearly as elegant as the Schallers. But they function much better.

Anyway, thanks to all for you interest and advice.

[amowry]

One thing you can do with Schallers is bend those little steel springs a little so they don't press as hard on the worm gears. That will loosen them up quite a bit, though the slop that's inherent in the tuners will feel more noticeable. In terms of functionality, Schallers have always left a lot to be desired, IMHO.

[tbrahan]

I am sure that if the builder had used Grovers he would have installed them a slight bit higher on the headstock and inboard a good bit. The buttons and shafts stick out like my ears in my first grade pictures when mounted in the Schaller holes. I'm trying to get used to them. I have read and seen photos of one or two builders shortening tuner shafts to make new tuners look like they were original to the instrument when doing repairs. Does anyone do that as a routine service, and how much would it cost?

[Mandoleon]

I have a 2005 A-style mandolin with what appear to be Schaller gold tuners. My problem is that they are getting progressively harder to turn. A couple are REALLY stiff ... The tuners were installed with the long bushing. I think this may be the problem?

I just stumbled over this thread, when searching for mandolin tuners to replace Schaller. Even as this post is from some months ago, I decided to reply to it as I exactly had the same problem.
When I bought my 1988 Gibson F5L it had the Schaller MGO4P (Model 597) factory installed. This was the F-Style version, gold plated with genuine MOP buttons. I soon ran into the same problem with the tuners on the low G and D strings became encreasingly hard to turn. The problem got worse, when I installed standard J74 strings (.011-.040) intead of the original lighter .011-0.39. It became so bad, that when tuning up to pitch, little metal cuttings sheared off the worm and the mechanics completely stuck. In the beginning Gibson at Bozeman, Montana, was really supportive and helpful, sending me two replacement cogwheels and a worm. Which however did't solve the problem.

What mostly annoyed me: when I contacted Schaller (they are located just 60 miles from where I'm living in Germany), first by email, then by a nice letter, I did not even get an answer. So I consulted a technical specialist for gearwheels and showed him the example. He told me, that the problem was caused because the threads of the worm and gearwheel did not precisely fit. This was especially due because of the Schaller mandolin mechanics cogwheels at that time had a throated profile. The machine milling process of these throated cogwheels caused little burrs at the edges of he the cogwheels, which additionally driggered the process. Schaller must have been aware of this problem, because their new "Grand Tune" design shows straight cogwheel flanks and they seem to work proberly.

I finally decided to replace the original Schallers with Saga Golden Gate FM30s (which are manufactured by Gotoh and are the same as Gotoh's MF40R). They work excellent, effortless, smoothly and precise. In addition they have the same dimensions, so it's easy replacement (29/32" = 23 mm post distance, same mounting screw distances and 0,328" = 8,32 mm bushing diameter). Grover's F309 should fit as well and should work without problems.

This also tells me, that there is no cause of this problems by a potential peghole misalignment, bushing binding or wrong positioning of the shim plates, which I would not have expected by a factory mounted original Gibson F5L anyway.

I also thought about replacing the old Schaller mechanics by their new "Grand Tune" model. But in addition to their poor response (which I really find inappropriate for one of the world's largest manufacturer of stringed instrument mechanics) I also feel, that the new Schaller design would in a way alter the original visual characteristics of a classic Gibson F5. The new "Grand Tune" design looks great on modern or individually branded classical designs of F5s or A models. I saw it on the Apitius F models, and they perfectly harmonize with design and color of this beautiful mandolins.

What additionally influenced my decision to change the brand was the fact, that Schaller is now using new mounting screw spacing (same as Waverly uses). Which is four times equal 29/32" (23 mm) space. The original design was 3 times 23 mm and the last mounting screw hole distance (towards the nut) was 26,2 mm. So by using the new distance scheme, the last screwhole has to be re-drilled. Saga, Gotoh and Grover are still using the same distances, so their tuner replacements fit 1:1.

Hope this post is informative for those, who face similar problems with older Schaller F type tuners.
Peter