I meant to snatch a copy of Neil's album when I visited DC...and then again when he visited Columbus, but it somehow slipped my mind on both occasions. I'd wager Neil will happen by this chat eventually. Again, I have heard him play the whole of BWV 1006.
[QUOTE= (Eugene @ July 13 2005, 10:11)]I think so too. The academic side is EXTREMELY vigorous, which is why I started more folk music as a break. It is definately more "intellectual" and "booky" than many of folk styles I've done. You have to remember that even amongst our ranks, violinists are heavily criticized for every movement they make. But, if the S&Ps were done on the mandolin I think many "experts" would cut it some slack. I myself would be charmed at the noveltly (meaning ligitimate, but "different") and take it as it is.Originally Posted by jmcgann,July 13 2005, 15:35
With this having been said, I must stress though, that this sort of Classical "academia" has it's place in music...just like non-academic music.
Wow, Jaco. My turtable is in extremely fine playing condition. This might be straw that breaks the camel's back to convince me to learn how to transcribe vinyl onto CD with a computer.
Wye Knot
Try this page (click). And then make me a copy as a way of saying thanks!
Might as well stir this up some more. Cello Suites/ Violin Sonatas and Partitas. Who has done (in your humble opinion) THE DEFINITIVE recording/performance. I've included both recording and performance due to the fact you may have seen a recital that surpasses anything (you've heard) on record. I'll start off with a performance of the Ciaccona from BWV1004 performed by Leo Brouwer on guitar in Toronto 1975 (or there abouts). The entire recital was amazing (Henze, Bach, Jobim) but this really stood out and was the talk of a festival that featured some of the leading guitarists of our time. Too many to list. His use of baroque ornamentation was spellbinding with technique and musicality.... unbelieveable.
mikeguy
Jaco, so how many copies of the LP do you want? I have boxes of them! I haven't been trying to sell anything from my website, but that is about to change. If anyone wants one, send me an email.
Bach arranged some of his violin and cello pieces for the harpsichord and some for the lute, so we know that didn't have a problem with hearing his bowed string music on a plucked instrument. Since the mandolin is a member of the lute family, is tuned like a violin, and sounds like a harpsichord, I know he would have approved. I DO have a problem with Bach on the piano, though!
I play primarily original mandolin music, but I often do 1 or 2 violin pieces on a concert just to have something people have heard of, before. My approach to playing violin music on the mandolin is to play it as a mandolinist would have when the piece was written. I don't use any tremolo on the Sonatas and Partitas because they don't need it, but I have tremoloed a note or two in Bach's sonatas with harpsichord and concertos, where a sustained sound was really required.
I would like a copy of the LP, but i don't have a turntable. I would pay for a copy if someone could dub it to CD for me.
As for favourite recordings, i love Rostropovich's recording of the Cello Suites.
I have the technology to put it on a CD, but just haven't done it yet. Once I have that done, I would throw in the CD copy if you buy the LP. Maybe this weekend...
Thank you all for your warm welcome.
I'm also very pleased to see that Neil Gladd is a member of this forum. I sent many mails to you, I have some live recordings of your Toccata on my hard drive, I'd like to send them to you, an advice would be very appreciated
Back in time, the composers were not very conservative about the instruments used to play their music. I have dozens of 18th century sonatas edited in Paris labeled :"6 sonatas for the mandolin, can be played on the violin and sounds well with a flute"...
I agree with the tremolo in Bach. In general, tremolo was never used in classical times, although it was known. It was called "trill" in Fouchetti and Leone's methods and in my knowledge, the first notes I saw in tremolo are in Corrette's Mandolin Sonata (approx 1770-72).
By the way, for those interested, I have a recording (mp3) of the Chaconne I made in a Church 5 years ago, the sound is quite poor, there is 3 nasty cuts in the recording, and the audience was a bit noisy at the end (13 minutes!), but that can give an idea of how the Chaconne sounds on the mandolin. I also have the fugue in G, but I can't stand it played that way anymore, so...
Edit : I'm interested by a CD too. But I fear that could be complicated...
Let me know.
My last turntable stayed behind when i moved from Brazil to the USA. It's too bad, but that's the way it is. I assume you can buy one of the real good ones these days for less than the price of the parts, but i don't have space for it, or any LPs to play (they stayed behind too).
About tremolo in 18th century or the classical period, I would be very cautious about saying that it wasn't used or just barely known and accepted. We all know the quotes from Leone, Fouchette and tend to ignore the opposite opinion of Corrette. If you have a look at Haydn, Beethoven and similar luminaries in there part writing for strings (of course, bowed), it is full of tremolo (bowed) requested from an instrument that can sustain very nicely without it. Tremolo is not just to sustain notes, it is to enliven them, to give direction, emotion. Why, if Bach is so adaptable on so many instruments (voices) should one deprive it of tremolo if played on the mandolin with conviction and art? Why not play it on the piano? Mendelssohn, Gould, Bussoni, and even Bach himself certainly didn't have any problems with that (Bach had actually had an occasion to try out an early fortepiano by Silbermann)? I have played baroque violin, various types of early mandolins and related historical instruments for many years now, have studied in depth the main sources but also many other documents hardly known and, to be honest, I would not rule out anything other than the impossible (flat wound strings, rubber picks, discreet or not so discreet amplification, you see what I mean) if our goal is historical re-enactment. Tremolo existed as an expressive device and was certainly not every player's forte (those like the famous 3 french players) and they discouraged its employ. Others really made good use of it and most fell somewhere in the middle ground.
Sorry to disgress on the topic, but I do enjoy Bach on all instruments (even the modern piano).
P.S. for Neil, I just realize I don't have your LP either... would love to have a copy when you are ready to sell them, fortunately I do have an turntable still (goes well with my 1970's period sound system).
The 1954-1956 recordings of the S&P by Milstein are THE recordings to listen to. Their style is VERY 1950's - a leaner tone and not so much schmaltz...but it's technicially supreme.
Stay away from Perlman, though. If you want simplicity and purity (with a very silky tone), look for Hilary Hahn.
I favor the old Milstein recordings of the Bach solos too.
I'm partial to the Szeryng recordings. But then, I tend to be partial to anything Szeryng did.
BTW, anyone listened to the old Joachim and Sarasate recordings of various movements from the S&P? Quite fascinating.
John Craton
"Pick your fingers to the bone, then pick with the bone"
Bach's cello suites on mandolin have become very personal for me. I have not attempted the S&P, mostly because I have become obsessed with the cello suites. I never understood how professional musicians could practice 6 to 10 or more hours a day until, in my ignorance, I boldly declared I would learn all 6 suites.
I don't have the time in the day to do this music justice, but I love it. I wish I had discovered this music many years earlier.
Ha, ha! keep time: how sour sweet music is,
When time is broke and no proportion kept!
--William Shakespeare
Streborcaj, your post makes me glad I've started (though very prematurely) exploring the suites at 19. I won't be able to do them justice for a long time, I'm afraid, but they are a joy to play.
Casals' recording of the fifth prelude is just awe-inspiring; has anyone here learned that piece? I'm sure a good number of you have, and I'm curious as to how one would get the most emotion out of it on mandolin. Though I won't be attacking that one any time soon; I've barely got the first prelude down.
I, too, would be happy (thrilled, even) to pay someone to make me a CD of Neil's album. #My turntable was the first part to go from my '70s vintage stereo system, some 15 years ago, but I've still not parted with all my old records (sigh). Right now the best stereo I've got is on my 'puter!
As far as unaccompanied Bach goes, I'm reluctant to "gush" yet again, as I've already related ad nauseam on this board how these works have always been my primary motivation for exploring the mandokin world. #
When I was still wet behind the ears at 19, the violin teacher with whom I had just recently started virtually knocked my socks off one day, by announcing he was going to start me on Bach (none of which I had yet studied) - with the Chaconne! He explained that I would be able to learn many other movements of other of the S&Ps along the way, but that the Chaconne would take "a long time" to master, so I might as well get started now. #Boy, was he ever right on the "long time" part. It is one thing to learn the notes, and quite another to learn the music! #But this piece is certainly right up there in my top several "what I'd need to have with me on a desert island" items. After lo these many years, I confess I now "hear" the Dm partita in Gm, as it wasn't until my viola switch that my playing of this work began coming into its own musically.I find that the bass line comes out and sings much more readily in this key and with the resonant timbre of the lower instrument, and it is also for this reason that I've longed to play the plucked version I imagined in my mind's alternate universe for a long time on a mandola. The mandolin is of course easier, but less satisfying. I have only been plucking for five years or so, and it is a learning experience all over again, as my right hand technique has come a long way but still has a long way to go. Oddly, I find about 70% or more of the Chaconne easier to fret on a mandolin than to finger on violin nowadays (with viola being the easiest), but then, it is the remaining portion where a bow surely comes in a lot more handy than a plectrum for navigating the string-crossings. But all in all, I find it a fascinating and absorbing piece from which I am still always learning new things! #
I would love to hear a recording of any unaccompanied Bach on a viola or mandola, especially of the violin works, but I'm not holding my breath. There is an old recording re-issued recently on CD of the complete cello suites performed on viola by Lillian Fuchs; I have not bought it yet, but probably will very soon. I have read nothing but excellent reviews of it.
bratsche
"There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer
GearGems - Gifts & apparel for musicians and more!
MandolaViola's YouTube Channel
I'll work on transferring the album to CD tomorrow, and will notify everyone who has asked when it's ready. As I once mentioned on a previous thread, the master is apparently lost, but I have a cassette dub of the master and many unplayed copies of the LP, so I'll see which works better.
The Chaconne - It would be a peak day in my life if I were able to negotiate that journey without a hitch! Given my very limited capabilities that day may be very far off, if it ever comes; but it doesn't matter. Just being able to work on such a piece, even if only sections can be played passably well, is still a great joy.
My experiences with it have sometimes been comical, as when I realized that I had gotten the voice leading all wrong in the big arpeggio section. I had found the higher notes so difficult to master that I gave them far too much emphasis. Then one day I was able to play fast enough to hear the ground and realize its importance - big joke on me! Strangely enough, after that the whole section got much easier to play...
So I'll keep at it, whether I'm likely to perfect it or not. If you can ride a rainbow who needs the pot o' gold?
Bob Higgins
Rigel Q-95
Mid-Mo M4, M11
Weber Hyalite Oval
Neil, put me on your list, please.
All youse hotshots who can rattle off this Bach make me wonder where I went wrong. I've been working up the prelude to the 1st cello suite for months, and have only now got it by memory, and can play it thru with a mistake or two. I expect to spend the next 6 months making it sound like music, instead of what it sounds like now. (Don't ask).
It is gratifying, however, and whatever it may sound like to others, I feel it was well worth the effort. (I had to memorise it since I suck at sightreading, and my eyes are beginning to fail. But that way it ends up being easier to really own the music, and eventually get it to sound right).
Bob A, I admire your confidence and playing ability. Sadly, I have been reduced to a shell of my former self, spending my time hunched over my mandolins for the last 18 months, surrounded by spilled coffee and old mandolin strings, in a relentless pursuit of making the first cello suite sound like music!
I, like you, can play through the prelude without making a mistake, but that is based merely on how you define mistake. I love it.
Ha, ha! keep time: how sour sweet music is,
When time is broke and no proportion kept!
--William Shakespeare
Interesting topic. It's always true - almost any idiot can play notes...but to make it MUSIC takes a genius with a heart. Good luck!
My copy arrived today. It's well-printed, easy to read and not over-edited (good). Compared to the other Bach mandolin book i have (Mel Bay's), the pieces in this one are a lot more difficult, but i guess if you want to approach the violin sonatas and partitas, this book is a good way to do it.Viktor mentioned "Mandobach" by Wolfhead Music in the previous page. Link to Wolfhead: http://www.wolfheadmusic.com/
One thing i didn't like: there was no apparent thought given to avoiding awkward page turns - get ready to use the copier and Scotch tape...
Unlike the Mel Bay book, this one doesn't have tab (not a problem for me, because i never use tab anyway, but i thought i'd mention it).
The folks at Ars Nova are a good bunch and very pleasant to deal with.
Vinyl Rules!! I've regressed to my lp-buying days - picked up a decent turntable and still buy vinyl to this day. Also, how do the Milstein recordings of S & P of the '50's compare to the '75 recording on Deutsche Grammophon? I have the '75 2cd recording but would like to hear other respected versions.
Actually, much thought was given to the page-turning problem, but as the music in each movement is continuous they simply could not be avoided in some cases. We apologize for the inconvenience, but there was just no way around it. (The works are generally performed from memory, but a bit of Scotch tape might come in handy while learning them.)
Very glad you liked the volume otherwise, and we appreciate your kind words. If only Bach had given us sufficient rests, maybe we could have accommodated the page turns as well.
John Craton
"Pick your fingers to the bone, then pick with the bone"
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks