MIX AT350 with K and K

[rgp]

Howdy, Does anyone have experience mixing these two on a mandolin ?

[pops1]

I would use a stereo jack and cord and each it's own send that can split into two at the amp. You will have to use a special cord, but they will need to be separate as the impedance is way different and will need to plug into different devices.

[almeriastrings]

I would use a stereo jack and cord and each it's own send that can split into two at the amp. You will have to use a special cord, but they will need to be separate as the impedance is way different and will need to plug into different devices.

A bit more complex than that... for one, the AT(M) 350 requires a special phantom power module. So - any kind of jack is out as not only does it need a three-wire balanced connection but it is unwise to use even TRS jacks where a voltage is present. The best way to do this would be standard connection for the K&K to one mixer channel via preamp, and the clip on ATM350 to another channel direct to the XLR with +48v. Alternatively, ATM350 via wireless. Then EQ each channel separately and blend...

[rgp]

Thanks Almeriastrings. Could you dumb this down for an old guy who is used to playing thru a mic on a stand. Does this need two separate cables ? One too the K and K jack and another too the AT 350 ?

[pops1]

Yes that is what he is saying. When I said a special cable that is also what I was meaning. You could put an XLR and a shielded cable together with shrink wrap or small zip ties to make a single cable for convenience, each would terminate at their appropriate places. I think if you are going to clip the mic on I would not join the cables. You could use either or both. Forgot about the phantom power.

[vince f]

Howdy, Does anyone have experience mixing these two on a mandolin ?

I use this combo on bass, and play mando as well. I use a PZ active Direct box for the K&K. either radial or fire-eye. Watch the impedance as K&K is not like most other piezo. The switchable Radial or the fire eye do the 1M required. Then run both to the mixer.

If you want more control over EQ and want to control the mix between the mic and PU,
The headway EDB2 would be my choice, phantom for your mic, proper input impedance for the pickup.

Only downside, no mute for tuning, and no boost for leads. This is fine for bass, and have seen many bass players use it. I have yet to find my holy grail: a mic and peizo pre with 1M input impedance, a mute/tuning switch, and a lead boost.

[pops1]

vince, the fire-eye has a lead boost, boosting one of the two should get you more volume. Are you looking to boost both and the same time?

[mandroid]

My .02, 2 jacks 2 cables, 2 signal paths mix thru a mini mixer..(?)
AT350 has a phantom voltage limiter thru the cord ? use that with phantom of mic channel..


My Odd setup is a Magnetic pickup thru pin 7 of an 8 pin DIN Connector from RMC ,
1 thru 6 to be separate underbridge piezos , RMC, though I only use 4, or 5.

RMC black box 'poly drive 2' has the 2 1/4" jacks in it.. Piezo preamp & EQ.. etc.
[+ 13pin guitar-synth jack]

[rgp]

Vince, how does the switchable impedance on the Radial. I am ignorant about impedance matching. I think the K and K is 1 Meg ohm, whatever that means. Does the ohm input on the Radial need to be lower than the 1 Meg ohm ? Thx

[pops1]

Some preamps have a 10meg input impedance, the K&K and fireye both have a 1meg that matches the pickup. A factor of 10 is acceptable in electronics, but not as good sounding as a match. 1meg ohm means 1 million ohms. You want to remember it is not resistance, but impedance and both use the ohm unit of measurement, but impedance changes with frequency.

[vince f]

vince, the fire-eye has a lead boost, boosting one of the two should get you more volume. Are you looking to boost both and the same time?

If I was using only a pickup (as I often do with guitar) the Fire-eye would be it.

The box I am looking for is 1 unit that has a mic pre with phantom, and a PZ pre with switchable (or 1M) input impedance, boost and mute. The fire eye is missing the mic pre/phantom.

[vince f]

Vince, how does the switchable impedance on the Radial. I am ignorant about impedance matching. I think the K and K is 1 Meg ohm, whatever that means. Does the ohm input on the Radial need to be lower than the 1 Meg ohm ? Thx

The PZ-DI has 1M input available (switch). For the money, I would rather have the Fire-eye.

[vince f]

Some preamps have a 10meg input impedance, the K&K and fireye both have a 1meg that matches the pickup. A factor of 10 is acceptable in electronics, but not as good sounding as a match. 1meg ohm means 1 million ohms. You want to remember it is not resistance, but impedance and both use the ohm unit of measurement, but impedance changes with frequency.

Be careful about the "factor of 10" rule. Everything I have read on the topic suggests that for piezo pickups, a match is ideal. The K&K troubleshooting guide is specific about this recommendation:

quoted "The Pure pickup sounds best with lower input impedance like 500 k to 1 meg".

It is possible that the ecstatic reviews you read about the fire-eye and K&K combo is partly because of matched source/load. So many other popular options are mismatched (like K&K/fishman, etc)

[almeriastrings]

The input (load) impedance has a big effect upon frequency response: however, with mandolin (especially) you really do not need a ruler flat response in the low frequency range (all it will do is make handling noises, thumps and such much more evident). With string bass, a 5 or 10M load can be useful. Not so with mandolin, and the K&K's tend to subjectively sound 'best' into 1M or thereabouts..I have some preamps with switchable input impedances (all the way to 20M!) and almost always find the 1M setting sounds optimal with these transducers on a mandolin/fiddle.

[pops1]

Be careful about the "factor of 10" rule. Everything I have read on the topic suggests that for piezo pickups, a match is ideal. The K&K troubleshooting guide is specific about this recommendation:

quoted "The Pure pickup sounds best with lower input impedance like 500 k to 1 meg".

)

I mentioned the factor of 10 because it is an accepted electronic tolerance. Some pre's have 10Meg and figure that way anything can be used. Sound wise a match is very much preferred.

[rgp]

I have a Fishman 100 loudbox. I think the input is 10 MEG OHMS ? With the K and K in the mandolin, will it sound better with the mando plugged into say, a fire eye which has a 1 MEG OHM, then , into the amp. I may add an AT 350 in the future. Thx

[pops1]

I don't have a fishman and can't seem to find input impedance. I do have a Trace Elliot, but the best sound I have gotten is thru the fireye into a PA. I have several other pre's, nothing has sounded better. I have plugged into several HiZ inputs in defferent amps. NOTHING has sounded better than going into the PA with the fireye, I have played thru many different PA's and all have sounded better to me than an amp ymmv.

[vince f]

I have a Fishman 100 loudbox. I think the input is 10 MEG OHMS ? With the K and K in the mandolin, will it sound better with the mando plugged into say, a fire eye which has a 1 MEG OHM, then , into the amp. I may add an AT 350 in the future. Thx

+1 on right into PA. and Fire Eye, Headway, Radial PZ-DI or other 1M impedance PZ optimized device. Of these, only Fire-eye has lead boost. I rejected fishman pre because of impedance even though I love the boost and tuner idea.

[vince f]

I have never felt that an amp works on stage for anyone but the bass player. To me it screws up the mix. Decent monitors, decent PA, everyone in the PA. Bass player often adds an amp because if you put enough bass for the bass player in the monitors, everyone else will hate it.

[pops1]

If you don't need the lead boost tell Darin when you order and he will convert the boost to a mute. I like having the boost, tho I rarely use it, but have installed a mini toggle for a mute. I use the mute all the time for breaks and to be able to unplug without turning off phantom and making a sound thru the PA.

[gummia]

I just put together a small pedalboard for this purpose.
I have the Headway EDB-1 preamp that has 2 channels (jack and XLR), eq and other things like phantom power for the AT350 mic.
That gives me the opportunity to use the K&K pickup and dial in the mic as needed for added natural sound. I haven't used it much but it seems to work fine to get a good balance between a good volume before feedback and natural sound.

I added a 6 band eq before the preamp to adjust the pickup, and then be able to eq both together on the preamp. Then for fun I just added some pedals that I had as well, like reverb and chorus but those won't work well unless only using the pickup. Also I have a Rolls XLR mic mute for the mic as well before the preamp.

[Mark Seale]

Do you get any popping or noise with the Rolls Mic switch? What output are you using on the Headway?

[gummia]

I haven't noticed a popping with the mute, the other day I used the jack output to a guitar amp and there might have been a slight tick sound. But then again I could hear a similar tick with all the pedals, even the newest one, the HOF2 reverb.
Mainly I will use the XLR balanced output.