Public Domain

[MontanaMatt]

Almost all art is derived from previous works, copyrights seem to deny this and wants this development of human culture to stop. It’s a misnomer to call it a right. It’s a privilege that primarily is beneficial to the publisher. If music is being published, payment to the inventor needs to be made. But live expressions of music, that disappear into the air after the notes fade...that is the essence of being a musician. You’re creating live art, out of nothingness. My thoughts in my head are all based on past works. If I speak the thoughts...communication...if I publish it and claim someone elses thoughts a my own, that’s the theft.

[ukenukem]

The thing that bugs me about this in our digital age is that it would be so simple for ASCAP, BMI, etc to have created a universally accessible software system where musicians/bands playing at a subscribing venue are given a login for that venue where they enter their setlists.

Then the system can easily pay the copyright holders after billing the venue the exact amount plus a fee for the system. That way everyone gets paid fairly.

[onassis]

Using that logic there would be no copyrighted music or books. There are a limited number of notes in the scale and a limited number of letters in the alphabet. They are used over and over again.

If I quote a written work in a public speech, should I be expected to compensate the author?

[MontanaMatt]

If I quote a written work in a public speech, should I be expected to compensate the author?

No.

[MontanaMatt]

If you recite a poem from a library book...no. If you play a song, yes. See, it makes sense.

[DavidKOS]

Almost all art is derived from previous works, copyrights seem to deny this and wants this development of human culture to stop. It’s a misnomer to call it a right. It’s a privilege that primarily is beneficial to the publisher. If music is being published, payment to the inventor needs to be made. But live expressions of music, that disappear into the air after the notes fade...that is the essence of being a musician. You’re creating live art, out of nothingness. My thoughts in my head are all based on past works. If I speak the thoughts...communication...if I publish it and claim someone elses thoughts a my own, that’s the theft.

I understand the intellectual basis of what you say.

" It’s a privilege that primarily is beneficial to the publisher. If music is being published, payment to the inventor needs to be made. But live expressions of music, that disappear into the air after the notes fade...that is the essence of being a musician. You’re creating live art, out of nothingness."

If there had never been sheet music publishing, recordings (why they are called "mechanical" rights) then it would be only about live performance.

"You’re creating live art, out of nothingness.""

And all the more reason to protect your income stream. Or should musicians just give music away all the time?

The thing that bugs me about this in our digital age is that it would be so simple for ASCAP, BMI, etc to have created a universally accessible software system where musicians/bands playing at a subscribing venue are given a login for that venue where they enter their setlists.

Then the system can easily pay the copyright holders after billing the venue the exact amount plus a fee for the system. That way everyone gets paid fairly.

Not yet for live, but there is a new system that electronically can do what it took cue sheets to do in the past; I assume some sort of system could be set up for live performance.

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Do any of you belong to a PRO?

[MontanaMatt]

My only gripe is with copyright enforcement against live performances and that live music should fall under “fair use doctrine “. It’s not being published, and generally not being presented as the musicians “original” work. It’s a live quotation of past expressions of human culture and thought. All value is being generated and derived by the live musicians efforts in the moment, without which there would be silence.

[Steve VandeWater]

The thing that bugs me about this in our digital age is that it would be so simple for ASCAP, BMI, etc to have created a universally accessible software system where musicians/bands playing at a subscribing venue are given a login for that venue where they enter their setlists.

Then the system can easily pay the copyright holders after billing the venue the exact amount plus a fee for the system. That way everyone gets paid fairly.

Copyright that idea! Quick!

[Bill Findley]

If a group jams only PD music in a coffee shop which doesn’t have a sound system, is there a copyright issue?

[DavidKOS]

If a group jams only PD music in a coffee shop which doesn’t have a sound system, is there a copyright issue?

Maybe...maybe not. Theoretically a BMI artist can keep a record of his originals played live and collect back end on that.

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https://www.pdinfo.com/public-domain-music-list.php

"List of Public Domain Music

Any Song or Musical Work Published in 1922 or Earlier is in the Public Domain in the USA.
No Sound Recordings are PD in the USA due to a tangled complexity of Federal and State Law.

All Public Domain Information on this Site is Based Entirely on USA Copyright Laws.
Public Domain Status Must Be Verified Separately for EACH Country where Music is Used.
Music Enters Public Domain 70 Years after Death of Authors in Most Countries Other than USA.
"

Useful website

[Jeff Mando]

Once again, the legal talk, however correct, has sidetracked the OP's question. The larger question of whether the Farmer's Market should pay royalties to PRO's (they should) is beyond the scope of what the musician needs to worry about. Just as it is none of the musician's business whether the Farmer's Market pays their electric bill. The goal of the musician, in this case, is to comply with the wishes of the venue, so the band can get paid. No need to take a political stance in defense of songwriters, that is a discussion for another day. Or put another way, if you bring the subject up to the Farmer's Market, you will lose the gig, since they already told you where they stand, in a roundabout way.

[Eric Platt]

Maybe...maybe not. Theoretically a BMI artist can keep a record of his originals played live and collect back end on that.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.pdinfo.com/public-domain-music-list.php

"List of Public Domain Music

Any Song or Musical Work Published in 1922 or Earlier is in the Public Domain in the USA.
No Sound Recordings are PD in the USA due to a tangled complexity of Federal and State Law.

All Public Domain Information on this Site is Based Entirely on USA Copyright Laws.
Public Domain Status Must Be Verified Separately for EACH Country where Music is Used.
Music Enters Public Domain 70 Years after Death of Authors in Most Countries Other than USA.
"

Useful website

Has this changed recently? We lost 2 jamming venues because of this issue approximately 15 years ago. The way it was presented was if the public can hear it, then it is considered a performance and subject to copyright law. Didn't matter it was a jam session.

[foldedpath]

If we are playing pre and post civil war music, public domain, why does a venue have to pay fees, who will the money go to. I totally understand if we are playing John Prine or anyone who might have written the song/tune. We play old time public domain tunes learned from people who learned it from people who learned it from their fathers, who learned it from their fathers. It has been played in public for 150 years, now you can't play it without the venue paying. Who are they paying, Ghosts.

That's a real concern, but under the current setup there's basically nothing we can do about it. The money a venue pays for a license goes into the ASCAP/BMI pot. If the live music is an OldTime jam or Irish session playing music 100 years old, that money will still be distributed to current artists based on arcane formulas involving who is getting how much radio airplay (or online streaming, these days). The money mostly flows into the pockets of modern Pop industry artists who have nothing to do with the artists who wrote those 100+ year old tunes you're playing at the jam. Not ghosts.

It sucks from a certain perspective. But another way to look at it, is that the license fees for the venue support the playing of live music in general, which is a good thing. It's an umbrella license that allows a restaurant or bar to feature live music of all kinds, not just OldTime and Irish, but Bluegrass, Country, Rock, Blues, and Jazz. It's a narrow perspective to just think of this in terms of niche music that's primarily in the public domain.

And even that can get a little sketchy. How many OldTime jams never play Ashokan Farewell? I know our Scottish/Irish jam plays a bunch of Gordon Duncan pipe tunes, and the occasional Liz Carroll or Paddy Fahey tune, none of which are PD.

As as practical matter, the "solution" under the current regime is just to always have your OldTime jams and Irish sessions hosted by venues you know are paying the appropriate license fees. Then you never have to think about it. You can even just just assume every venue owner is paying (i.e. don't ask questions), although this runs the risk of suddenly being booted out and having to find a new place for the jam.

The one thing I would never do, is submit a set list to "prove" that I'm only playing PD music. That's not my job, it's up to the venue owner to make sure they're able to host live music. I have sympathy for the venue owners.... we've lost a few places to play live music in my area due to licensing hassles. But it's just the way it is.

[pops1]

First of all I would like to thank all the participants on this thread on keeping this sane. In a past thread on another forum it got out of hand and was shut down. Thank you to Scott and the moderators for allowing this and having a place where we can voice our opinions. It is too bad that there can't be exceptions to performing PD music.

If friends gather in a city park and play, it is in public, people can hear you, therefore by law it is a performance and the city/state/ federal gov. whoever has jurisdiction of the park is required to pay according to existing laws. If I do a live recording I do not have to pay, there is an exemption for that. I would like to have this a more music friendly, people friendly atmosphere. When times get tough music is what people need and seek to get them thru. Eliminating venues that allow folks to get together and play for themselves isn't helping our society.

I don't feel that I can record a PD tune and restrict someone else from playing it in any way shape or form, it is not mine to own, but to use. Everyone's to use anytime they wish to enjoy it.

Thanks to all for the input on this touchy subject.

[Loudloar]

Several points:

1.

Why don't you guys research Bill Monroe's PRO credits and copyrights?

Decades ago Bill Monroe and just about everyone in Country Music would record Public Domain songs/tunes and put their name as author. They weren't especially trying to be dishonest, but if they didn't they were leaving money on the table. So you may research BMI and ASCAP records and find PD songs with wrongfully claimed ownership. I'm sure there are also a fair number of cases where an "arrangement" is copyrighted that isn't significantly different than the PD version. Often it is done so they can get royalties for their recording of the song, again it's about not leaving money on the table. It doesn't give them the right to collect royalties from anyone who does the PD version of the song. And that probably wasn't their intention.

2.
BMI will show the author, song title and date. But there are often multiple songs with the same title. How do you know which one is which? I remember looking up "Rock of Ages" and there were about 40 songs with that title or some version thereof.

3.
"If a venue pays a fee for the songs that are performed how does that money get to the authors?"
It's a very imprecise process. They use sampling. I'm familiar with the process for churches. Most churches of any size pay a fee to CCLI (Christian Copyright Licensing International). Then CCLI selects a few churches each year to sample. These churches are required to track and report exactly what songs are performed during the year, and then CCLI extrapolates those reports to calculate royalty payments. They assume that all churches are performing roughly the same songs as the reporting churches. The reporting churches are different every year.

Steve

[jesserules]

My only gripe is with copyright enforcement against live performances and that live music should fall under “fair use doctrine “. It’s not being published, and generally not being presented as the musicians “original” work. It’s a live quotation of past expressions of human culture and thought. All value is being generated and derived by the live musicians efforts in the moment, without which there would be silence.

100% wrong. There should be some way to keep people who feel that way from performing work created by other people.

[MontanaMatt]

100% wrong. There should be some way to keep people who feel that way from performing work created by other people.

So you're saying since I think the system is messed up and is inhibiting music culture, I should be banned from performing, even though every venue I work at pays the fees? Rich.
BTW, I have an ascap license and actively pay the fees.

[jesserules]

My only gripe is with copyright enforcement against live performances and that live music should fall under “fair use doctrine “. It’s not being published, and generally not being presented as the musicians “original” work. It’s a live quotation of past expressions of human culture and thought. All value is being generated and derived by the live musicians efforts in the moment, without which there would be silence.

100% wrong. There should be some way to keep people who feel that way from performing work created by other people.

So you're saying since I think the system is messed up and is inhibiting music culture, I should be banned from performing, even though every venue I work at pays the fees? Rich.
BTW, I have an ascap license and actively pay the fees.

What I'm saying is what I said, and what I said was in reply to your own words as emphasized above.

[Jeff Mando]

If you guys are playing venues that actually pay fees, you must be working some high-class places. I'm guessing you're not playing beer joints here in Mississippi..........

Another question, EVEN IF properly collected and distributed, we would be talking pennies per songwriter, if that. Worth a try, though!

Now, if you're talking playing somebody's song on the Super Bowl half-time, that's a different story

[DavidKOS]

Several points:

1.

Decades ago Bill Monroe and just about everyone in Country Music would record Public Domain songs/tunes and put their name as author. They weren't especially trying to be dishonest, but if they didn't they were leaving money on the table. So you may research BMI and ASCAP records and find PD songs with wrongfully claimed ownership. ....

And that's how these guys got their own versions copywritten!

So you're saying since I think the system is messed up and is inhibiting music culture, I should be banned from performing, even though every venue I work at pays the fees? Rich.
BTW, I have an ascap license and actively pay the fees.

No to the first part, and I appreciate that you are paying your fees.

If you guys are playing venues that actually pay fees, you must be working some high-class places. I'm guessing you're not playing beer joints here in Mississippi..........

Another question, EVEN IF properly collected and distributed, we would be talking pennies per songwriter, if that. Worth a try, though!

Pennies add up.

And I prefer to play a high class joint than a dive.

Still, this is a touchy subject. I'd like to be on a board that reviews the rules about PD music.

As much as I seem to be touting the PRO line, there should be some space made for non-profit sessions and such.

[foldedpath]

If you guys are playing venues that actually pay fees, you must be working some high-class places. I'm guessing you're not playing beer joints here in Mississippi..........

There are plenty of venues that scoot under the radar, sure. But if it's an obviously commercial establishment, the parking lot is usually packed with cars, and especially if the joint has a web site, Facebook page, and Yelp reviews, then it's likely to get ASCAP/BMI attention eventually.

[David Lewis]

FWIW, BMI sent Scouts out to get venues to pay the fee for recorded music,
including people playing Covers of Copyright songs,

To Avoid paying,
Open Mics restricted what was allowed.. your own songs , or get kicked out.

Even went after the dancers 'independent contractors' at the town's "clothing optional" performance bar..
for their dance music recordings..

Some Publishers keep renewing copyrights .... Acuff- Rose?

How does Karaoke function ?, they have to be recognizable Pop songs ..

You buy a license when you purchase the backing tracks. Same as if you buy a karaoke game for your X-Box. Of course, it's a bigger - much bigger - fee for a venue.

[DavidKOS]

That's a real concern, but under the current setup there's basically nothing we can do about it. The money a venue pays for a license goes into the ASCAP/BMI pot. If the live music is an OldTime jam or Irish session playing music 100 years old, that money will still be distributed to current artists based on arcane formulas involving who is getting how much radio airplay (or online streaming, these days). The money mostly flows into the pockets of modern Pop industry artists who have nothing to do with the artists who wrote those 100+ year old tunes you're playing at the jam. Not ghosts.

Yes, it is not completely fair, but until it is revised, this is the current system.

It sucks from a certain perspective. But another way to look at it, is that the license fees for the venue support the playing of live music in general, which is a good thing. It's an umbrella license that allows a restaurant or bar to feature live music of all kinds, not just OldTime and Irish, but Bluegrass, Country, Rock, Blues, and Jazz. It's a narrow perspective to just think of this in terms of niche music that's primarily in the public domain.

Thank you for your insight here.

And even that can get a little sketchy. How many OldTime jams never play Ashokan Farewell? I know our Scottish/Irish jam plays a bunch of Gordon Duncan pipe tunes, and the occasional Liz Carroll or Paddy Fahey tune, none of which are PD.

No comment - as it's obvious!

As as practical matter, the "solution" under the current regime is just to always have your OldTime jams and Irish sessions hosted by venues you know are paying the appropriate license fees. Then you never have to think about it.

RIGHT!

It is the venue's responsibility, not the musicians, to be licensed for music.

Most of the complaints come from players at venues that do not pay their fees, the owners try to circumvent it by putting restrictions on the musicians, and that's not right.

I you own a business that benefits financially from music, you should pay for that privilege.

The one thing I would never do, is submit a set list to "prove" that I'm only playing PD music. That's not my job, it's up to the venue owner to make sure they're able to host live music. I have sympathy for the venue owners.... we've lost a few places to play live music in my area due to licensing hassles. But it's just the way it is.

the only time you would submit a setlist is to ensure you get backend for your own compositions.

https://www.bmi.com/special/bmi_live

"BMI Live allows performing songwriters to input up to six months of their performance data to be considered for payment"

[DavidKOS]

I did think of one thing I can't figure out under the current rules.

You and a few buddies go to a pub, with your instruments, and begin to play a session.

the club does not have music of any sort otherwise. You and the gang do not get paid, nor is it a feature that gets other customers in.

Do they have to pay ASCAP and BMI?

they did not hire the players, they are patrons.

[allenhopkins]

Huh. I play about 150 gigs a year at seniors' residences, nursing homes, senior centers. Almost invariably start with You Are My Sunshine (a favorite with seniors). Rights to the song, credited to "Jimmie Davis & Charles Mitchell," are assigned to Peer International (though there's a fairly interesting article on its disputed authorship). Copyright, I believe, was 1939, so no PD here.

So how many of those facilities do you think have ASCAP/BMI licenses? They don't seem to be explicitly either included or excluded (I looked on the ASCAP website, and "exemptions" included "non-profit educational institutions," which these aren't -- some are for-profit, and none are explicitly "educational." Musical programming in these places is often classified under "recreational therapy," so maybe my banjo playing is therapeutic? (Doubt I'd get unanimous agreement on that!)

So here I am beltin' out copyrighted material to an audience of residents and anyone else who happens to wander in, and unsure as to whether Ralph Peer's heirs are getting their 25¢ or whatever from the Bitter End Nursing Home. I should be concerned, but surprisingly I'm not.

Now I'm going to say something really subversive, and I apologize -- sincerely, in advance -- to those who are trying to make at least part of their living, by being paid for music they've written (or arranged) and copyrighted. Music's being played all over the place, in a variety of venues, some where money's involved, others not, and a great deal of it is not public domain, and in so many cases no one's buying a license or worrying about fair compensation for authors and arrangers. To some extent, once you let a piece of music out the door, there's only limited control over what happens to it afterwards. Do you have any idea how much money the copyright holders of Happy Birtthday To You would have made, if it were remotely possible to collect performance fees on the perhaps billions of times it was sung outside the ASCAP-exempt "small circle of a family or its social acquaintances" (quote from the ASCAP website). This stuff floats around, and someone loves it and wants to play it, without following the rules, even knowing that there are rules. Just the way it is.

For every farmers' market that worries about public performance of licensed/copyrighted material, there are probably 50 who never even thought of the issue when they let some busker open up his/her mandolin case and play Cherokee Shuffle (this version copyrighted by one Bruce Ling). So, don't turn me in, but I'll blithely go my way playing for the old folks, without worrying overly about being shadowed by the License Police. Jus' an outlaw...