Worn down frets on my '02 fern, guide me please

[stevedenver]

So my gibson fern has deep divots in the e and a string frets all the way to the ninth fret, some lesser to the 12th. Some wear , but far less on the g and d string area.

I like the gibson tiny nickle silver ?? frets. They are easy to play way up, which i do.

I like the virtually unworn stainless steel on my brentrup, but its tougher to play past the 15 fret. They are slightly wider, and have a harder feel to them. Im not sure if its the build or frets, but the brent has a superb treble clarity compared to the sweeter woodier fern, which has a bit less treble presence or projection, to my ear. Not sure if this is due to stainless or the build.

How what should i consider a refret of my fern?
All frets, frets up to the 17 or 19? Frets to 12th????

Gibson style tiny frets?
Evo?
Etc

It took me about 5 or 6 years to get this wear. It still plays fine, and is sounding great, but i think that will come to an end and id like some knowledgable guidance on how to proceed. Im in denver, btw.

Im fine with spending more for a proper job, than less for an "ok" job. If this is relevant, ie are partial refrets perfectly ok?

What is involved, what are the pitfalls, etc. i understand mando frets are deeply seated.

My fern has a bound neck, btw.

Thanks!

[pops1]

I think you can get stainless frets in different widths just like other frets. I have some really small stainless fret wire, I got it to resemble the frets in my '22 paddle. The tangs were too small in this case and I didn't use them, but they do make small stainless frets if you like the stainless.

[Don Grieser]

I like the EVO frets on my Heiden. A lot of playing time and no noticeable wear. I think they make the small ones too.

[CES]

I’d see if you can find EVO gold or stainless in the same gauge as your Fern and replace them through 12 or 15. I recall Big Joe Vest being a fan of stainless steel (seated with a dab of Loc-Tite) when he was with Gibson and after he parted ways with them. If those aren’t available, get the same thing you have on there now, and just deal with the fact that you’ll need more work done again in 8-10 years.

I’m a fan of larger fretwire and radiused boards in general, but agree it’s a little easier to achieve clarity in my RM-1 and Eastman 315 above the fifteenth fret than it is on my Silverangel with the banjo wire. That said, I don’t venture up there that often, and have figured out how to make it work on the SA...just takes a little adjustment, and so much more comfortable on the rest of the neck...

Bottom line, after much inane rambling: Don’t compromise on what you like. If you can get the feel with a longer lasting wire, great. If not, replace with what it came with. I’m in NC and don’t know Denver well at all, but would think the Folklore Center would be able to do the work or point you in the correct direction. TMS, Griffon, the Nashville fellas, and any number of independent luthiers are just a Fed Ex ride away. Shipping gives me the willies, but would risk it to make sure the job is done right...

[Mike Snyder]

My luthiers recommend doing partial refrets only if we’re using identical wire. Any change in size or material means total refret. That has kept me from going to EVO in the past and will be a hard choice in the future. A total job with EVO is not cheap. Will the cost over time save $$ or cost? Luckily my frets last much longer these days due to spreading the play time over two mandolins a tenor banjo and a clawhammer banjo. Not so lucky is retirement looming in the near future with reduced income a real probability. So to the OP; EVO frets are what I want on both mandolins. Medium to big in width, which is what I have now, only in so-called nickel silver. My ‘05 Gibson is on the fourth refret. Too many. No more nickel silver.

[rcc56]

Partial refrets are fine if the new wire is a reasonable match for the old wire. Some modern Gibsons have a way of developing "cupped" or "dished" frets, though, and the instrument should be carefully inspected by the luthier before a final decision is made. Your luthier may elect to leave the original fret wire in the board past the 20th fret. Replacing these frets is somewhat difficult and a bit risky because of the lack of strong structural support below the fingerboard extension. Most players don't play up there anyway. I sometimes replace these upper frets with maple strips ground level to the fingerboard-- it serves the same purpose as scooping the fingerboard to eliminate interference between the pick and the frets, but maintains the appearance that the extension still has its frets.

As far as the choice of wire, that is entirely up to you. Some people believe that stainless wire can brighten the tone somewhat, but I have not refretted an instrument with stainless yet, so I have no opinion on the matter. However, I would guess that any changes in tone from a harder wire would only be minor. If an instrument is correctly serviced and adjusted, and the replaceable components such as the nut and the bridge are of good quality, the tonal characteristics of an instrument are primarily dependent on the build. Long experience working on mandolins and especially violins has convinced me of this.

Mandolin frets are not generally seated any deeper than guitar or banjo frets. The depth of the seat is dependent upon the size of the fret wire's tang, which generally varies between .050" and .075", depending on the style and brand of the wire. Bound fingerboards are not a problem for a qualified luthier.

A stainless steel wire with a crown width of .040" and a crown height of .039" is available from Axiom, Inc. I don't know what the dimensions of the "tiny" wire on your Fern is, but the Axiom wire is quite similar in width to the wire Gibson used in the 'teens and early '20's, and a bit higher. It is the narrowest fret wire easily available these days. The only caution with this narrow wire is that it may not work in a board with worn, damaged, or oversized fret slots.

Most of us charge more for fret jobs with stainless steel wire because it wears out the crowning files and cutting tools quickly.

As far as the size wire you choose, different players prefer different things. I personally prefer wire that is .080" wide by .040" high. Wire much wider than this becomes unplayable and unsightly above the 15th fret. Wire that has a raw crown height of under .035" tends to be more difficult to play because the player's fingertips bump into the fingerboard before the string is firmly seated against the fret. I try to leave my finished frets no lower than about .037" or so. The bottom line is that any wire with a width of .053" to .080" and a height of .037" to .043" will work well in any mandolin. The choice is a matter of personal preference.

[HoGo]

I prefer thin stainless wire from Jescar (I think it is 0.039" wide and just as tall) they make it in nickel as well and maybe it is the same as on your mandolin. I've used the wire on few of my last builds and it is great wire. I cannot hear any sound difference because of the wire.
I would recommend doing full refret with complete setup if you want to go with stainless wire. If fingerboard is planed and slots have good edges the jescar wire is so consistent that no fret levelling will be needed (if the person doing the refret won't drive them wildly into wood). I don't chamfer edges of slots as much as I do for nickel wire as this wire will likely never be removed again and the thin wire will seat more level if edges are not chamfered. I only do final check with 600grit paper on flat piece to check top surfaces of frets and polish with 600/1200/2000 grits. I only charge 10EUR more for SS than for nickel wire (cost of the material and potentially slightly faster dulling of tools - though I think files) if the board is flat (that wire is supplied straight) and in good shape. There's typically no crowning needed at all (unless the board has old worn chippy slot edges after dozen of refrets). I also like to glue the fret ends of this wire with drop of CA and quick wipe (a'la Frank Ford) - again because the wire will likely never (within my lifetime) be removed again.

[HoGo]

Wire that has a raw crown height of under .035" tends to be more difficult to play because the player's fingertips bump into the fingerboard before the string is firmly seated against the fret.

I have tried hard and just couldn't get my fingertips to touch the wood even on much lower frets while getting clear tone. If your fingertips are hard from playing you will realistically never press hard against the board (except with untrimmed fingernails) or sometimes if you "miss" the center of the string pair. Of course there are players with beefy thick fingers who may marginally touch the board but not really hard enough to prevent clear fretting on lowe frets. I think placebo effect takes place here as well...
My main mandolin had the same frets for 20 years, I levelled and re-crowned it 5 or 6 times and at the end the frets were barely 0.3mm tall (0.012" - really) and it still played like butter - I was really surprised myself when I measured the height with calipers.

[HoGo]

I would add that I consider the quicker wear of tool possible myth. The material is harder but the soft nickel clogs the file well before it is really dull and the stainless doesn't so at the end the files can last just about the same time. When you nip the fret tang for bound fingerboards the nickel fret ends tend sometimes to bend slightly as the tool clips the tang so you need to check them and straighten if necessary. When I nipped the tang fron SS wire with fret nipers (flush ground edges, typical tanhg nippers are not suitable for SS) I found out that mostly just one cut is necessary, in 90% I just cut parallel flush with crown and the piece of tang just shoots away without need to cut across. On nickel wire you always need two cuts with nippers (if you don't have the special nipper). Also the cut seems to be cleaner than on nickel wire and needs just one or two strokes of fine file to clean-up (I prefer to clean up the cut on nickel frets as well and that typically requires more than two strokes).
Lastly, as I mentioned previously, the wire is hard and consistent so the wire seats much more evenly resulting in almost no levelling needed (in most cases all I needed were two strokes with 600 grit and all fret tops got marked). On nickel frets they are softer and will conform to any inconsistency of board or fret slot and you often may need more levelling after installation (you can avoid this if you have the arbor fret press with lots of different radius inserts).

[Mike Snyder]

I suspect that most of us don’t have a set-up so perfect as to allow good playability after five dressings. I’ve had refrets when the frets were very badly grooved and the finger pressure required to play cleanly was becoming excessive. Even then there was no audible problems, no doubt due to the ability of the folks who do my set ups.

[Mike Snyder]

I suspect that most of us don’t have a set-up so perfect as to allow good playability after five dressings. I’ve had refrets when the frets were very badly grooved and the finger pressure required to play cleanly was becoming excessive. Even then there was no audible problems, no doubt due to the ability of the folks who do my set ups. I have been under the impression that set-up becomes more dicey with dressings. I have been playing them until the finger pressure is uncomfortable, then getting a refret.

[multidon]

Just to weigh in on Adrian’s statement that greater tool wear with stainless is a possible myth, I just wanted to point out that recently, Stew Mac has been stating that ALL of their tools are “rated” for use with stainless with one exception- their nippers.

Seems to me, if you use the files on stainless, and they work and there are filings, then the steel of the tool in question must be harder than the material being worked, and tool wear should not be much more of an issue than usual. Still, if I worked with stainless a lot, ( I don’t, in fact I never have), I would probably invest in diamond tools to be safe.

Mike you are spot on regarding set ups. Technically a fret dressing lowers the fret height enough that your action at the nut is a tad higher. One dressing, you probably won’t notice it. After two or three you start to notice. You can deepen the nut slots to compensate, but then when you ultimately re-fret you will have to replace the nut as well.

[stevedenver]

Thank you all for your help.
I have a much better idea on how to proceed.

Im thinking stainless , partial, as luthier recommends, identical to gibson oem vintage sized frets.

[pops1]

I have been crowning the frets with dents instead of leveling as long as it is playing clean. This narrows the dent and brings back the slight intonation change the dent seems to change. I crown until the dent is very small in the middle of the fret, but don't take it all the way out. It allows me to play the frets longer without leveling. I have crowned the worn lower frets on my mandolin 3 times now since I last leveled them. It seems to be letting me get a longer time between refretting, it was something I tried and will continue to do until I go to EVO or stainless frets.

[GTison]

Steve, I had my 02 Fern refretted about 18 months ago by Hugh Hanson in Nashville. He did a great job. I considered stainless, but after discussion we chose the EVO frets. Close to original fret size. He was a bit concerned about the size of the slots from the 2 previous fret jobs. And we talked about possibility of enlarged slots and the work $ involved in going to a smaller tang. It did not turn out to be the case. As always it's good to have measurements of the height from frets you like to play at, string widths at nut and saddle. I had been experimenting with my string height before it went in, so personalizing the setup took a while. We had a discussion about action and neck relief and adjustments to aid in making a clean sound esp. on the G string. I also asked for the G side to not have much bevel to the fret ends. I had problems with the G string slipping off the edge after the first refret.

BTW the first time I had it refretted, I put fairly large wire on it AND it was a partial refret to the 15? fret. It played fine to that point. But I did later regret not having another fret or so. Also, on that 1st fret job the fretboard binding lacquer chipped out on about 7 frets and looked that way till the 2nd fret job when they filled the chips. At the second fret job I went back to smaller wire.

As for the sound of a Fern I believe it is the build. In general I have to work a little harder on the trebles. Mine is not as "woofy" as some I've played. I kinda chalk it up to Sitka, (but what do I know). When I purchased it I chose this one because of the V-neck , high neck set, and better trebles, but that's a different discussion.

[stevedenver]

+1

[Rob Roy]

Another vote for EVO here, I've put 0.080" EVO in two mandos now and after 2 years on the first one, I see no signed of wear, let alone dents, and I use medium gauge strings and hit hard with a CT 55 pick. I can't detect a difference in tone, a concern that some have with stainless steel. A couple of points of clarification that may affect your decision:
• EVO is available in the traditional narrow wire 0.053" wide, Luthier's Merchantile carries it
• It is not (or shouldn't be) more expensive. Materials cost is $7 vs 4$, it files, sands, and polishes out just as easily as nickel silver. I've installed it in 4 instruments and find it just as easy to work with. I do crown with a 300 grit diamond crowning file though. SS wire does have a reputation for chewing up tools and many luthiers do upcharge SS for that reason. Mike Snyder, if you're current tech charges significantly more for EVO, you should shop around.
• The color difference is real but you get used to it :-)

[pheffernan]

• The color difference is real but you get used to it :-)

But it might be less desirable on a partial refret.

[Br1ck]

I'd wait until I heard a problem before I'd do anything, but I do know how knowing those divots are there could bug you.

[Tom Haywood]

Definitely have somebody with mandolin refret experience look at it. Often, what seems like deep divots really aren't all that deep and can be taken out with a light fret dressing. If they are deep enough to cause buzzing or intonation problems, and can't be dressed out, then replace. I personally think the modern nickel based wire is softer than it used to be. If you press hard when you play, like I do, this modern stuff can dent in a couple of years and then you are back to square one. I still use it on cheaper mandolins, but I really like the EVO because it lasts. And it feels good. I've used it with nickel hardware and it doesn't look bad. I assume your mandolin has an ebony fret board. Pulling frets can cause tiny pieces of ebony to chip out. Someone with experience will have a method to repair those chips as they happen so that it isn't visible. If the fret board is bound in the traditional Gibson style, it takes some time to redo it that way. New frets will likely require a new nut, which can generally only be determined once the frets are in. Then a complete setup. Nothing wrong with replacing a few frets if that solves the problem. The general rule around here is 5 or 7 frets, or else the entire board. I've seen a couple of mandolins where a partial refret was done with different wire. They looked a little funny but played fine. I think the Fern is too nice a mandolin to do anything half way with it, especially if you can afford to do it right.

[stevedenver]

Still reading....
Yes, i have no issues, yet.

I like evo, but the color difference is something i need to think about. Ive seen it and, it IS something that is noticeable. I dont buy to resell, but, it's a thing i keep in mind. I think it would put off some, and theres always so much used gear to compete with, at least at present.

Since i play daily, and hard, im told, im leaning towards stainless.
There may come a time in the upcoming decade, as im retired, that either i cant play, (hope not), or, a pricey refret wont be an option. So, in thee long run, it may be best.

Im inclined to go full monty on vintage sized matching the gibson oem , in stainless, again as high up as the luthier advises.

Since i last posted, my poor little rigel a+ is also rather worn, as is my kruger banjo (with stainless frets. It makes me aware that things wear out. My old D28 too, i imagine. All play fine, but its 'acomin.....

While i humidfy, it is possible that here in colorado, the ebony has shrunk a bit, and chipping may be reduced????

I do know this has been the case with my '68 D28, ie fret ends protruding and receding with the seasons.

Again thanks to each of you for your valuable experience and your thoughts.

[GTison]

I'm not in the know, but...
can you get stainless frets in a small OEM size? Seems this was also an issue at refret time, or maybe it was just what he had in stock.

[rcc56]

I'm not in the know, but...
can you get stainless frets in a small OEM size? Seems this was also an issue at refret time, or maybe it was just what he had in stock.

I don't know what OEM means, but you can buy wire that is .040" wide x .039" high from Axiom Inc. www.axinc.net
This is one of the smallest wires available, and is actually slightly narrower than prewar Gibson wire. They also sell celluloid based bindings and pickguard material.

[pops1]

I don't know what OEM means, but you can buy wire that is .040" wide x .039" high from Axiom Inc. www.axinc.net
This is one of the smallest wires available, and is actually slightly narrower than prewar Gibson wire. They also sell celluloid based bindings and pickguard material.

I have some of that wire in SS and it is very narrow, I wanted to put it on my old Gibson, but the tang is very narrow, too narrow for the slot. You may ask Bill if it comes with a wider tang, I just used what I had and left them nickel silver