Slurs

[Mark Gunter]

If you want to call it a "hammer on", that is fine, but equally it could naturally be call it a "slur".

Hmmm, Jeff, just wondering why in the world it possibly wouldn't be "fine" to a call a hammer-on a hammer-on? Also, fine to call it a slur, because that's what a "hammer on" would be. The only problem I can see with any of that terminology is that it may confuse or irritate someone who takes a narrow view of the terminology - perhaps due to their education, or their particular genre/culture, which has been discussed already ad nauseum here IMO.

[JeffD]

Hmmm, Jeff, just wondering why in the world it possibly wouldn't be "fine" to a call a hammer-on a hammer-on?

I think there might be a distinction only in when the technique is used. When I play several notes of the tune in a row on one picking, I think of that as a slur. When I ornament a tune by picking the open string and then quickly hammering on to the intended note, I think of it as a hammer-on. That might be shaving the ice real thin, and may be genre specific thinking.

I have never seen a hammer-on written in, but there is a lot I have never seen.

[JeffD]

it may confuse or irritate someone who takes a narrow view of the terminology - perhaps due to ... their particular genre/culture, ...

I find it very easy to forget, especially around here, that within the world of mandolinning world wide, Bluegrass and Americana are a minority genre. Popular though they are, here and around the world, most people playing a mandolin are not playing that.

When I fully immerse myself in the world of classical mandolin, which I am doing more and more, I find in those moments it is hard to think of the mandolin as anything but classical, and at those moments it seems so alien to play anything not written down.

Its a head space thing, as a friend of mine says.

[Mark Gunter]

I think there might be a distinction only in when the technique is used. When I play several notes of the tune in a row on one picking, I think of that as a slur. When I ornament a tune by picking the open string and then quickly hammering on to the intended note, I think of it as a hammer-on.

I'm glad I asked . I find your thinking interesting, and it contains logic, but just foreign to my own thinking. I just consider "hammer on" or "pull off" as descriptive technical terms describing techniques regardless of where or why they're used. Also, I've seen them written into tablature a great deal, not so much in standard notation, for both guitar and mandolin. I use those techniques extensively for different purposes. Some is purely for the feel, some is for convenience (as with playing triplets while maintaining a nice right hand groove).

[JeffD]

I'm glad I asked . I find your thinking interesting, and it contains logic, but just foreign to my own thinking. I just consider "hammer on" or "pull off" as descriptive technical terms describing techniques regardless of where or why they're used. Also, I've seen them written into tablature a great deal, not so much in standard notation, for both guitar and mandolin. I use those techniques extensively for different purposes. Some is purely for the feel, some is for convenience (as with playing triplets while maintaining a nice right hand groove).

I have not thought of hammer ons or pull offs as part of the tune itself, but part of the many ways you can ornament a tune within a genre. As such I have seen them as specific to how a particular player wants to do the tune. But if they are written in, perhaps they are part of the "canonical" version in some cases, perhaps many cases. I just never thought of it that way. This in itself could be the subject of a fascinating thread.

As to slurring, it mostly is what happens to my speech to inform me that the number of bourbons i have consumed is perhaps over the line.

[DavidKOS]

In tremolo playing I can see a "slur" more literally, where one connects the notes with one continuous tremolo, as opposed to stopping the tremolo at the end of each note.

I'm glad other folks also use that tremolo effect for legato passages.

[Mark Wilson]

"What 'you got there, a ukulele?"
The mandolin slur we can all agree on

[DavidKOS]

I find it very easy to forget, especially around here, that within the world of mandolinning world wide, Bluegrass and Americana are a minority genre. Popular though they are, here and around the world, most people playing a mandolin are not playing that.

I wonder if that is true numerically, but I guess there is no way to do a mandolin world census.

It sure SEEMS to me, a member of the group that does NOT play Bluegrass and Americana as a main style, that we are in the minority, but maybe that's just because I live in the good ol' US of A.

[Mark Gunter]

But if they are written in, perhaps they are part of the "canonical" version in some cases, perhaps many cases. I just never thought of it that way.

As I've mentioned, I've seen them notated frequently in guitar and mandolin tablature; that doesn't necessarily mean that they are essential to playing a tune. I wrote a little tune The Coaling that makes use of slurs like that and I notated them, but if someone wished to learn the tune they could find other ways to play it.

So I think the cases where I've encountered that type of stuff written in, it has been one of the following: (1) Someone has written teaching material to teach technique, (2) someone has transcribed another's playing, and wishes to indicate these slurs, (3) someone has transcribed his own playing and wishes to indicate them, or (4) an author of a piece felt they were integral to the piece.

I think what we're discussing is technique, and a player can vary that and alter the tune somewhat accordingly. Uniformity of technique is probably more prevalent in classical playing, it wouldn't be so with folk or popular music for the obvious reasons (less dependence on written scores, high degree of improvisation, etc.)

[JeffD]

It sure SEEMS to me, a member of the group that does NOT play Bluegrass and Americana as a main style, that we are in the minority, but maybe that's just because I live in the good ol' US of A.

Yea it does. But I was surprised, and am continuously surprised, by the number of mandolin players I have met in the classical world who cannot tell bluegrass from fiddle tunes. And the mandolin traditions in Europe and Japan are classical, and local and regional folk traditions, and in any case overwhelming not bluegrass.

I have a leg in both cultures now and the differences are fun to experience.

An example of what I bump into all the time. - I am working on a project recording very old fiddle tunes and music, as mandolin and autoharp duets. Really fun stuff. My classical mandolin teacher was surprised to hear about it. She wasn't aware that anything was ever written for mandolin and autoharp.

I bump into the difference between FFcP and movable positions, on one hand, and position play on the other. Its not that each has its adherents, its that each is so ignorant of the other's system for going up the neck.

Stuff like that.

[Gelsenbury]

I'm just downloading the Jarmo Romppanen album! In the meantime, spare a thought for those of us who are trying hard just to play the right notes.