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Thread: The "Florida" ???

  1. #1
    Pittsburgh Bill
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    Default The "Florida" ???

    What exactly is the purpose"? One of my instruments has this extended piece with no frets to scoop. It is just there with no reason that I can conjure up in my limited knowledge of mandolin construction.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    If there are no frets it's there as a nod to tradition in design. Some super human individuals were actually able to use the notes on that thing. Dave Apollon was known to use it although I believe he had one fret removed so he could actually fit his finger in there. Keep in mind the F5 was originally developed as an instrument to play classical music.
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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    But then there is the aesthetic value to be considered.
    I had a very late night, grape fueled, discussion about why it was anything more than decorative. If you look at the design, the scroll becomes a rather bulbous appendage with great visual weight having very little to offset that for visual “balance” the slight (often missed) return on the treble point in combination with the “Florida” give a little artistic balance. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
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    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Tim, why don't they call it "The U.P.?" It looks as much like that as it does like Florida... or does it...??
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    The Florida" ?? What exactly is the purpose"?
    It's traditional. Although the modern redesign of it is very appealing without the limitations.

    It's said to be necessary for some pickers to access extra high notes. I'd like to see someone play a tune there and have it be recognizable.

    It can be in the way of picking over the end of the fretboard, resulting in a sounding board for picks to click on.

    To build one and scoop it during the build is the strangest notion for me but ymmw

    Mostly it's something for cafe folk to fret over

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    Smile Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
    Tim, why don't they call it "The U.P.?" It looks as much like that as it does like Florida... or does it...??
    Excuse my ignorance, but what is a U.P.? Maybe it's something we don't have in Australia.:

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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilson View Post

    Mostly it's something for cafe folk to fret over
    Or not, in this case.

    I’ll see myself out

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
    Tim, why don't they call it "The U.P.?" It looks as much like that as it does like Florida... or does it...??
    The U.P. is more East/West oriented, (Upper Peninsula) of the state of Michigan, Florida is more a flaccid member pointing “down” the body of the instrument. I suppose it might as well be called the “Dead mackerel” but, it’s more decorative (Stan Jay like) moniker.
    It could be called a “beaver tail” or, “Lappet” (like the tails on a bishops’s mitre) for whatever it’s worth... I think The alliterative Mr. Jay might have liked that, but, I digress.
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    I don’t think there is anyplace else on the planet capable of claiming a region known as a “U.P.” It’s the Upper Peninsula of the state of Michigan.
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If there are no frets it's there as a nod to tradition in design. Some super human individuals were actually able to use the notes on that thing. Dave Apollon was known to use it although I believe he had one fret removed so he could actually fit his finger in there. Keep in mind the F5 was originally developed as an instrument to play classical music.
    For certain pieces the classical mandolinist needs those upper range frets. I'm in that camp, I want at least one mandolin with as many frets as possible, as if to play any violin literature.

    However many modern (typically folk or BG style) players tend to pick very close to or over the fingerboard, and get what is called "pick click"; scooping, lowering, having inlaid fake frets, or the full-on "Florida-ectomy" are common solutions.

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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Wilson View Post
    It's said to be necessary for some pickers to access extra high notes. I'd like to see someone play a tune there and have it be recognizable.
    Look on youtube for classical and certain Italian mandolinists.

    or start with this


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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Not quite. David Appollon gets up to the 22nd fret -- high high D -- in that piece, which is in the key of Dm. But no higher. In fact, he's not even into the thinner part of the Florida! The infamous Florida on the Gibson F5 goes all the way up to the 29th fret, but those last seven frets of it are virtually playable, as most of us realize. Now, mandolins with scooped extensions, or those that come with somewhat shorter fretboards (like Webers, 'modern' Northfields, etc.) often go up to 24 (or even 26 frets), and still avoid producing pick click issues. And they could all be used for that Apollon piece, in principle.

    What is the need for frets above 24 (high high E), I ask?

  17. #12
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    I can't recall where, but I remember reading that there is a damping function of the finger board extension (a.k.a. The Florida)... thoughts from those initiated in the acoustic voodoo arts welcome!
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Here's a picture of Dave Apollon's 1935 F5 from the Mandolin Archives. Note the missing fret on the Florida so he could actually use on of those frets way up there.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  20. #14
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post

    What is the need for frets above 24 (high high E), I ask?
    For playing advanced classical music like this piece from Calace:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    I’ve seen Chris Thile play up there. And it was clear and loud and had great tone. Smart Alec little ^¥]¥{¥[¥> *** ��������������
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    The infamous Florida on the Gibson F5 goes all the way up to the 29th fret, but those last seven frets of it are virtually playable, as most of us realize.
    Is there such a thing as a Freudian typo?
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    I don’t think there is anyplace else on the planet capable of claiming a region known as a “U.P.” It’s the Upper Peninsula of the state of Michigan.
    I would think that Uttar Pradesh, home of the Taj Mahal, would be the most famous region frequently referred to as “U.P”.

    Google “U.P. Region” and see what comes up.

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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    For playing advanced classical music like this piece from Calace:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	04201-Metodo_per_mandolino_Parte_6a (dragged) 1.jpg 
Views:	315 
Size:	132.9 KB 
ID:	165072
    Any recordings of someone playing that cleanly, I wonder?

  28. #19
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Any recordings of someone playing that cleanly, I wonder?
    https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ludes+mandolin

    Just listen to these players.

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  30. #20
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    For certain pieces the classical mandolinist needs those upper range frets. I'm in that camp, I want at least one mandolin with as many frets as possible, as if to play any violin literature.

    However many modern (typically folk or BG style) players tend to pick very close to or over the fingerboard, and get what is called "pick click"; scooping, lowering, having inlaid fake frets, or the full-on "Florida-ectomy" are common solutions.
    But with no frets! That was what really spiked my curiousity.
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    But with no frets! That was what really spiked my curiousity.
    See my answer, #12. Perhaps a knowledgeable member will confirm...? Damping effect?
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Played a Rattlesnake mandolin built based on Loar specs a couple weeks ago. It was an awesome sounding and playing mandolin, but I’ve gotten so used to playing without one of those that the click and the feel of hitting the extension was maddening. My first mando had one, and I don’t recall it bothering me back then, but I didn’t know any better. Would I adjust technique to make it work if I had to? Of course, but count me firmly in Sam Bush’s camp...
    Chuck

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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    Any recordings of someone playing that cleanly, I wonder?
    Of course there are. Who would record it if they couldn't play it cleanly.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  34. #24
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Of course there are. Who would record it if they couldn't play it cleanly?
    About half the people on YouTube, unfortunately.

    Not that they're recording Calace, or that it's a problem peculiar to mandolinists, but...
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    Default Re: The "Florida" ???

    Allen has a point...

    Just to clarify, the Rattlesnake was an exceptional mandolin I’d be proud to own. It’s exceedingly better than my playing, and not quite as good as the Loar I played that day, but certainly closer to it than the 168,000 price difference. Olin Davis is building some exceptional instruments, much respect!

    I played the Loar after the Rattlesnake, and was already adapting to avoid the click, but also didn’t get after the Loar like I did the RS. I could have bought the RS if I’d marked it up a little, but would rather have a nice mountain house (with a nice porch upon which I’d pick my Silverangel) than the Loar, as would my wife, which is key here...
    Chuck

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