What if Gibson had not existed?

[Beanzy]

Around now would be a good time to drop in the name Dave Apollon.
Starting out on his bowl-back, then L&H but quickly becoming a huge help in extending interest and awareness of the Gibson F Style mandolin in the USA
http://www.mandoisland.de/dave_apoll...l#.Woh_q8qnyf3
As a household name from the vaudeville circuit with a career spanning 50years he had a longevity that carried that mandolin brand through what would have been particularly tough times for these instruments. He found ways of bringing it to the fore when, from a general public awareness point of view, almost noone else was about.

[DavidKOS]

Around now would be a good time to drop in the name Dave Apollon.
Starting out on his bowl-back, then L&H but quickly becoming a huge help in extending interest and awareness of the Gibson F Style mandolin in the USA

Another interesting point. Supposedly Dave liked playing newer mandolins, as a contrast to today's players that like vintage instruments.

As such, he would have been happy to "trade up" every so many years, like my uncle did when he bought a new Cadillac or Lincoln every year or 2.

[DavidKOS]

It's like the 'ukulele' period in Martin's history where contemporary flat top players have a hard time imagining a time when the company was supported by the ukulele fad.

I do think that these conversations run a risk of way overestimating Monroe's influence. Views can swing wildly, when the truth is somewhere in the middle. If Mon had stuck with his F-7 for some reason or an oval hole, I don't think it would have stopped others from moving to the F-5. And if Loar hadn't overseen the development of the ff-hole models... well I've already expressed my belief that they'd have happened anyway. I understand the counter arguments.

Lastly, it's does take some imagination to understand the original uses for familiar instruments of today. The banjo, moving from African folk roots to a 'parlor' instrument for light classical and popular song, to jazz and bluegrass and beyond. And not in a straight line. Likewise, imagine archtop guitars, not as jazz boxes, but as accompaniment for mandolin ensembles, which is the role many were designed for.

Thanks for adding to the thoughts in this thread

I do think that if BM had played any other style of mandolin that it would have influenced a lot of subsequent players to use that same style mandolin.

There was a common practice in the 1960-70's of taking Martin arch-tops, removing the tops and necks, and putting flat round-hole tops and 14-fret necks on them -- converting them to quasi-OM "Martin" flat-tops.
....

The Martin arch-tops weren't particularly successful, in competition with Gibson, Epiphone, Stromberg

Exactly - the Martins were not true full archtops like the others you mentioned, which would NOT have make as successful flat-top instruments.

[allenhopkins]

Well, I would consider the Martins "true full arch-tops," just not very successful ones. Their backs weren't carved, but "arched by graduated braces," as Longworth describes them. They were initially made with round sound-holes, later with f-holes. Due to Martin's lagging introduction of adjustable truss rods (not until the 1970's), they had "beefier" necks than their competitors. Most telling of all, perhaps, they were introduced early in the Depression, and discontinued during WWII, suffering both from reduced demand due to the economic plunge, and later lack of materials due to the war effort.

I've only seen and played (briefly) one Martin arch-top, and it seemed to be very well-made, but heavy and unresponsive. Arch-tops clearly weren't Martin's "thing," in terms of construction, and they sure suffered from bad timing.

[ollaimh]

Hah!!

good one garber

[DavidKOS]

Well, I would consider the Martins "true full arch-tops," just not very successful ones. Their backs weren't carved, but "arched by graduated braces," as Longworth describes them. They were initially made with round sound-holes, later with f-holes. Due to Martin's lagging introduction of adjustable truss rods (not until the 1970's), they had "beefier" necks than their competitors. Most telling of all, perhaps, they were introduced early in the Depression, and discontinued during WWII, suffering both from reduced demand due to the economic plunge, and later lack of materials due to the war effort.

I've only seen and played (briefly) one Martin arch-top, and it seemed to be very well-made, but heavy and unresponsive. Arch-tops clearly weren't Martin's "thing," in terms of construction, and they sure suffered from bad timing.

Compared to the classic Gibson-Epi archtop, the Martins were not in the running.

Technically they had an arched top, but look:



It's so obvious they adapted their usual guitar to an archtop design, but they didn't quite get it right.

http://uniqueguitar.blogspot.com/201...p-guitars.html

"however there were some unusual features found in these instrument that were not found in similar products by other companies. Because of this the sales were flat perhaps due to the sound and the unusual construction."

"although literature says the back is arched, the arching was barely noticeable and almost appeared to be flat."

http://www.vintageguitar.com/1948/martin-f-9-archtop/

"features extremely fine craftsmanship, but the design on this and other Martin carved-top guitars is quite different from that of “traditional” carved-top by Gibson, Epiphone, D’Angelico, and Stromberg."

"Martin archtops feature what is essentially the same structure as a typical Martin flat-top, with the addition of a carved top and adjustable archtop-style bridge and tailpiece. "

"While Martin’s carved-top guitars feature fine workmanship and sound quite good, they are distinctly different in sound from the traditional-design orchestral rhythm guitars. As a result, they did not achieve widespread popularity among professional players "

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/col...37-martin-c-1/

"Martin’s archtops never made much of a dent in the marketplace. They had a lighter, more delicate sound than archtops with carved backs. They were also a little quieter, which was a real problem for a style of guitar that was supposed to drive the rhythm section in a big band.....They are neither fish nor fowl"

and back to mandolins......

[J.Albert]

Just reading through this thread makes one appreciate how much Orville Gibson's ideas influenced not only the mandolin world, but the realm of the guitar, as well.

Mandolins (and some guitars) would have looked very different had not he come along...!

[Teak]

We are well into the 4th page of this thread and I am a bit shocked that no one has stated the obvious answer to the OP question.

Schmergel Devastator. Yup, all of the high-level players would be playing them and we common folk would be buying those Asian knockoffs of the Devastator. I would even venture to guess that National would have come out with a Resophonic Devastator by now that wouldn't be just a banjo-killer, but a big band-killer also.

[Russ Donahue]

Unfortunately, I mistakenly bought one of those Asian Schmergel knock-offs. It followed a binge-reading of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy about 1974. I was in a Gerber's Music Store and saw shining on the wall a golden Schmeagol "Precious." It promised to be the "one mandolin that would rule them all. Took it home, played it for a week and discovered it only allowed me to play murder ballads in a minor key, so I passed it along for a banjo - which I still have.

We now return you to the normally scheduled program...

[BradKlein]

I'll interrupt the Schmergel talk to post this video. I think it's relevant to think about the Martin C models as an example of the many convergent and divergent trends during the golden age of American fretted instruments. If you haven't run across Anna and Eliz, they are best known for the revival of the 'cranky' story telling thingamajig. And their searing Old-time harmonies. But Anna Roberts-Gevalt is also becoming associated with the Martin archtop (C-2?) that she plays. Folks tend to think of these instruments as 'losers' because they aren't especially associated with any particular musical style. But Martin sold a lot of them, and they were quite expensive, and of course made to the highest standard of any American prewar instruments.

[DavidKOS]

Folks tend to think of these instruments as 'losers' because they aren't especially associated with any particular musical style. But Martin sold a lot of them, and they were quite expensive, and of course made to the highest standard of any American prewar instruments.

Good example - and that archtop certainly is not being played like a traditional "jazz" guitar. Manufacturing quality was indeed good.