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Thread: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

  1. #1
    Phil Goodson Philphool's Avatar
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    Default Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Any of you guys following the stuff that Taylor Guitar is touting now?
    We've had long discussions about how you can either have long sustain or lots of volume, but how each siphons off energy from the other. No one seemed to have a new idea for how to increase 'efficiency' so that both characteristics could shine.

    Well, Taylor is now claiming that V-class bracing might be that silver bullet. And it looks so much like modified tone bars and such.

    I'd love to hear some comments from those of you who work with the physics of these things on a regular basis. Thanks.
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    And a link: https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitar...cing/story#vso
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    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Looks cool!

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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Cool is as cool does.
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    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    They should build cylinder tops. The best acoustic guitar I’ve heard was a Howe-Orme cylinder top. Now that would be a revolutionary change for Taylor.

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    ....
    Last edited by Jonathan Ward; Feb-09-2018 at 4:03pm. Reason: Post deleted
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    Registered User George R. Lane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    It wasn't Bob Taylor who came up with the idea, it was Andy Powers.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    When I saw that the first thing I tought of was tone bars

    Andy Powers is the new Bob Taylor. Young talented luthier looking to do things differently. The difference between Bob and Andy was the resources Andy has far surpass what Bob first had available to him when he started and he has Bob to bounce things off. I wish them well. I've been a Taylor owner (along with others) since the 80's.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    So is that little routed channel like an internal recurve?

    I've only built a ukulele kit, but I've been thinking of it since I started reading here about building and considering constructing my own instruments.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    So when will this acoustical marvel be available? Interesting idea to say the least.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Streip View Post
    So is that little routed channel like an internal recurve?
    My guess would be to allow more vibration in the top as a whole.

    Interesting bracing, would love to hear how it sounds.
    Last edited by pops1; Feb-09-2018 at 3:56pm.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    So when will this acoustical marvel be available? Interesting idea to say the least.
    As a Taylor owner (XX-MC, the first of the "grand auditoriums"), I get Wood & Steel, the Taylor quarterly magazine. Current issue is all about V bracing. PDF available here, and I gather the new bracing's on the market now.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    In the opening editorial of that Wood and Steel, Kurt Lustig (Taylor’s CEO) states “We are not a legacy guitar company...we are an innovation driven guitar company.”. To me, this is an obvious dig at Martin, along with all the other companies (both high and low end) that basically copy Martin designs. The x brace system that Martin introduced is tried and true, and there’s something to be said for that. Martin had also improved it through the years with scalloping, forward shifting, adding the A frame at the top, etc. I guess you could call that “innovation”. This new design, on the other hand, is a pig in a poke. Maybe it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread, or not. Time will tell. If the bracing pattern is so great, why is the rout along the edge necessary? X braced guitars don’t need it. I am also VERY dubious of the claims they make for better intonation with the V braces.

    Taylor, although they claim to be “innovation driven”, doesn’t always produce winning ideas. I remember when their headstocks were attached to their necks via a finger joint. Player demand made them switch to the more conventional scarf joint. Another flop was their solid body guitar line, which was going to revolutionize that segment of the market. Proprietary one bolt neck joint, proprietary bridge, proprietary pickup design, yadda yadda yadda. No longer made, epic fail.

    I used to be a Taylor owner. I did move that guitar along, but enjoyed it while I had it. It was a nice playing instrument. But it also illustrates what bothers me most about Taylor. They keep changing things (“improving things”, to them) and then, if you have one of the older models, they make you feel like what you have is no good. When I bought my Taylor, they went on and on about how nice the African mahogany (Khaya) body was. Then a couple of years later, they not only stopped using it, they started bad mouthing it! Hey. Wait a minute! Didn’t you used to say it was good wood, now you say it’s bad? My wife has one of the all mahogany ones. Beautiful guitar. Right after she bought it, they redesigned the whole series, with a new whiz bang bracing pattern! When stuff like that happens, you feel like a rube for buying anything they make, because something better will come out shortly.

    But I actually suspect that’s part of their buisiness model. I know Taylor owners. I’ve been to the Road Shows. Real Taylor fans are true believers. Many of them are just chomping at the bit to win the latest and greatest from Taylor. At one Road Show I attended. I saw a guy buy one of the new Soiid Body instruments, one of the upper line ones, quite pricey. He didn’t play it, he just barely looked at it, but about 30 seconds later it was his. He was a true believer, you see. It was the latest and greatest from Taylor, so he had to have it. That’s just the way it is with a lot of these folks.

    For those who may be interested, the V bracing is being introduced in only a few select high end models at first. Will it actually work out for them, and be the revolution they hope for? We shall see.
    Don

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    It will be interesting to see if that little groove around the edge will cause any repair-warranty problems down the road. The top bracing is interesting but it is reminding me of something that has already been done historically, I just can't put my finger on it. But it if works out for them....great.
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    Registered User George R. Lane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    In the opening editorial of that Wood and Steel, Kurt Lustig (Taylor’s CEO) states “We are not a legacy guitar company...we are an innovation driven guitar company.”. To me, this is an obvious dig at Martin, along with all the other companies (both high and low end) that basically copy Martin designs. The x brace system that Martin introduced is tried and true, and there’s something to be said for that. Martin had also improved it through the years with scalloping, forward shifting, adding the A frame at the top, etc. I guess you could call that “innovation”. This new design, on the other hand, is a pig in a poke. Maybe it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread, or not. Time will tell. If the bracing pattern is so great, why is the rout along the edge necessary? X braced guitars don’t need it. I am also VERY dubious of the claims they make for better intonation with the V braces.

    Taylor, although they claim to be “innovation driven”, doesn’t always produce winning ideas. I remember when their headstocks were attached to their necks via a finger joint. Player demand made them switch to the more conventional scarf joint. Another flop was their solid body guitar line, which was going to revolutionize that segment of the market. Proprietary one bolt neck joint, proprietary bridge, proprietary pickup design, yadda yadda yadda. No longer made, epic fail.

    I used to be a Taylor owner. I did move that guitar along, but enjoyed it while I had it. It was a nice playing instrument. But it also illustrates what bothers me most about Taylor. They keep changing things (“improving things”, to them) and then, if you have one of the older models, they make you feel like what you have is no good. When I bought my Taylor, they went on and on about how nice the African mahogany (Khaya) body was. Then a couple of years later, they not only stopped using it, they started bad mouthing it! Hey. Wait a minute! Didn’t you used to say it was good wood, now you say it’s bad? My wife has one of the all mahogany ones. Beautiful guitar. Right after she bought it, they redesigned the whole series, with a new whiz bang bracing pattern! When stuff like that happens, you feel like a rube for buying anything they make, because something better will come out shortly.

    But I actually suspect that’s part of their buisiness model. I know Taylor owners. I’ve been to the Road Shows. Real Taylor fans are true believers. Many of them are just chomping at the bit to win the latest and greatest from Taylor. At one Road Show I attended. I saw a guy buy one of the new Soiid Body instruments, one of the upper line ones, quite pricey. He didn’t play it, he just barely looked at it, but about 30 seconds later it was his. He was a true believer, you see. It was the latest and greatest from Taylor, so he had to have it. That’s just the way it is with a lot of these folks.

    For those who may be interested, the V bracing is being introduced in only a few select high end models at first. Will it actually work out for them, and be the revolution they hope for? We shall see.
    Don,

    I agree with you about Taylor always coming out with the newest ans best. I used to be a Taylor man (I like the neck shape), I had a 510 and an 814 (Brazilian). When I started playing mandolin, I moved both of them on to someone who really wanted them. This all brings me to my main obsession, Golf. Every year the manufacturers come out with the newest driver that will give you more yardage. In my 45 years of playing if you total up all their BS claims, I would hit the ball over a mile. Yes, some are innovations
    really can make a difference, but it takes a period of time to see if they really do what they say it will do.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    This was a huge big thing on the Acoustic Guitar Forum a few weeks ago. A dozen or more different multipage threads, no exaggeration (some of which have since been amalgamated). Reactions ranging from "Thanks to Taylor, guitars will be perfect for ever more!" to "Yeah, right."

    Consensus reaction was "Let's wait & see."

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Kind of like manufacturers of fly rods.

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Ludewig View Post
    Kind of like manufacturers of fly rods.
    Why do you suppose those old bamboo rods are so sought after?

    My Dad was a hardcore fly fisherman most of his later life. When he died he had accumulated several.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Well, this is a new one for me. I’ve never heard of companies coming up with new and improved models. Taylor may be on to something. I think other companies should try this. I bet you could sell all sorts of products this way.

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Mike,

    They have a very soft cast and and I feel they react better when you get a strike. Fly fishing is a religious experience here in Montana. Have been doing it for almost 35 years.
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Ha ha Bruce. Sarcasm! I love it!

    Of course I’m aware of the fact that businesses come up with new and improved models. But the difference is, when you drop big bucks for a guitar and the company tells you how smart you are for purchasing their fine product, they shouldn’t turn around at a later time and tell you you need to buy a new one because the first one wasn’t really that good. That’s disingenuous, and a good way to alienate customers. They alienated me because I wouldn’t play that game.
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    Phil Goodson Philphool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Well, thanks a lot guys. I didn't really start this thread to get you to say whether or why you like or don't like Taylor Guitar Company.

    I was asking whether you folks who have some expertise in acoustic instruments feel like the geometry of the new top design seems to have any merit. I'm curious about how things work and what makes things better, .... or doesn't.

    Whether you like the company or not, I don't care.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Hey, if it works it could be great. The final decision is up to the players/buyers. I think it is good that companies/shops experiment and produce new things. Of course, the history of luthiery is littered with the bodies of innovations all along the way.

    Maybe that V-bracing funnels the sound from the bottom of the soundboard to the soundhole? I would love to try one and compare to a similar Taylor without.

    Reminds me of a Kalamazoo company back in the 1920s that partnered with some Italian violin guys to add a piece of wood to the top of some of their upper-end model mandolins. Then the guy who made that decision left the company, started his own making electrified fretted instruments and electric keyboards. Hmmmmm...
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    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    As some of my Australian guitar building friends have noted Taylor's new bracing system is not unlike the Gore-Gilet falcate bracing as documented in their highly detailed book on guitar building published a couple of years ago. And on the topic of epic fails, there was also the Gibson Mark guitar series which the Taylor bracing also echoes a little. I will be interested to play one when they cross the Pacific.

    I don't think it is useful to compare this bracing to Gibson's Tone Bars. The stresses and forces on a carved instrument are different from those on a flat-top/fixed-bridge guitar. The tone bar idea is adding longitudinal stiffness to the top, but not any cross grain stiffness. The two main V braces on this new idea will do that as well, but those four braces across the soundboard will add in lots of cross-grain stiffness.What would be interesting would be to compare the nodal patterns of one of these new guitars with a good Martin X braced guitar.

    The Wood and Steel article has some wonderful marketing waffle. Almost scientific but not quite when you read it critically.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Graham McDonald; Feb-10-2018 at 12:57am.

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    At one Road Show I attended. I saw a guy buy one of the new Soiid Body instruments, one of the upper line ones, quite pricey. He didn’t play it, he just barely looked at it, but about 30 seconds later it was his. He was a true believer, you see. It was the latest and greatest from Taylor, so he had to have it. That’s just the way it is with a lot of these folks.
    A similar phenomenon happens with PRS customers. They collect them and mostly look at them or leave them in the case. I do know that when I worked at a guitar shop, it was nearly impossible to sell a used PRS unless it was truly mint condition. If it showed any wear at all, it was a tough sale....

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    Default Re: Taylor V-class bracing - No direct mando content

    Perhaps the routed channel acts like the recurve section on mandolin and fiddles, allowing the top to pump like a speaker cone?
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