8 versus 10

[JeffD]

I came across this video that really does a good job of explaining the advantages and disadvantages of four courses versus five courses (8 string vs. 10 string), or in the case of electric mandolins four string versus five string. Certainly not all the advantages and not all the disadvantages, but it really has some good thoughts.

The video applies to the electric bass. But the teacher/explainer does such an excellent job one can easily apply the ideas to mandolin. Ignore specific note references of course, and what might not apply to your particular application, but there is a lot here worth listening too. IMO.

I know I could add a few disadvantages, as many of us could.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr7XSxq_Vxg

[T.D.Nydn]

I've seen this video before..I really like the "comments" that other people had to say about it...

[Tom Wright]

Good point in the video about embracing the range and knowing why you are playing particular notes etc.

Concerning mandolin, the purpose of the lower course is different in important ways. The low B string for a bass just makes things heavy and deep, but doesn't really change the role of bass. A mandolin with five courses, however, can now take the role of guitar or piano and be an accompanying instrument. This has been my journey.

A reason to stick with four courses is to play like previous players, to fill conventional roles like bluegrass, and to simply play the notes the violin plays. (Of course there is a lot of instructional material for the regular mandolin, too.) Acoustically, a smaller body that is optimized for the violin range can be more powerful than a compromise larger body. Then again, a guitar is itself a compromise, helping the low range at the expense of the higher notes. That said, the Lawrence Smart 10-string I played once was pretty loud (and pretty expensive).

I would argue that limiting oneself to four courses limits one to niche genres, or token roles in larger groups. Once you go to five you have a larger pitch range than a guitar on your open strings, many chord voicings are possible, and many opportunities arise. For example, even without playing pitches below G, the extra string(s) allow the close intervals like G-B (7-4-x-x-x) or A-C# (9-6-x-x-x).

I am using my acoustic 10-string in English Country Dance and contra dance, and it can be both the violin and the guitar, as well as a percussion sound. The electric 10-string fits well in a straight-ahead jazz sextet of piano, bass and drums, and two saxes plus mando. Pretty much all guitar jazz chords are in the c-course range, and all melodies are possible, as the mando goes down almost to the bottom of a tenor sax (C instead of Ab).

I do not find value in a mandola with an E, because I need the shorter scale for reaching chords. The body size is more important for a powerful tone on the C than a long scale, and for electric it's not relevant. Both my 5-string and 10-string electrics have a string tone on the C.

[T.D.Nydn]

The instrument is only as limited as you are...

[Bob Visentin]

I play mostly 5 string bass and mandola. On bass I don't usually play the low notes (below 5 fret) on my B string. I play in F a lot (jazz) and ALWAYS in closed position. The low B string gives my a low F that is not right up against the nut. Also the fifth string gives me 2 octaves with out a position change.
On mandola I really enjoy the deeper tone of the longer G and D strings for back up and I can still go up to 3rd position for leads.
I don't play Bluegrass (I do listen to it a lot though)

[Jim Garber]

I don't play a 5 course instrument tho I have one and used to have another. I had a Roberts Tiny Moore electric 5-string mandolin. I liked the tone and ordered it from Tiny directly. I took some lessons with him at Ashokan Fiddle and Dance Camp. What i noticed about his playing was that he rarely played full 5-string chords in comping. Similar to what guitarists do to comp, he used the lower courses for comping and played single string solos more or less on the upper strings. I doubt he never used the lower C-string for leads but I think he mostly was in the upper range.

I also own a 5-string viola and habe tried to incorporate it into my music but find it confusing to play the correct string. I guess I know where I am on the 4-string violin or viola. I am sure I can find way, if I truly wanted to, to get used to 5-string fiddle or a 5- or 10-string mandolin, but for the most part i don't find much of a need.

One question I have for Tom Wright and other 10-string players: what scale does your instrument have and what strings do you use, especially for the lower course? I have seen some of those (like the aforementioned Lawrence Smart's) that deal with the range with a fan fret arrangement. I do recall playing a non-fan fret one made by John Monteleone at Mandolin Brothers in the 1980s and that one was pretty weak on the lowest course.

BTW more and more pf the top choro players are switching over to 10 string instruments. Dudu Maia now even plays a resonator 10-string these days (I believe).

[Tom Wright]

I use lighter strings on the 10s than on my 5-string. The 5 is a Ryder with 14" scale. The Buchanans are 14.25", so I had Pete at Almuse use that for my electric 10. I don't feel it is necessary, as the C on the Ryder is quite strong and stable, but it's not much more work. Fan frets hurt my head to look at, and I know I would hate the stretches for the chords I need. (I played that Smart fan-fret.)

Dudu's resonator was made by Topher Gayle, and he was in love with it when he had it new at the last Symposium a couple of years ago. Lots of projection, of course. Its scale is also 14.25". I think he uses a .050 C.

My gauges for the 10s are .010, .014, .022, .034, .047. This is really light, but Buchanan doesn't use truss rods, and the first one I had picked up a bowed neck.

In jazz the guitar rarely uses space-filling chords, nor do I, usually. In folk and pop I use big chords a lot. Led Zeppelin sounds better that way, as does Bob Dylan. In English Country Dance I use the whole range, starting in violin register for the melody, but often using the lower octave for the same melody. Octaves are very available over a great range, and are powerful sound. I can get the thumpy rhythm-guitar sound by a bit of palm muting, and the big box sounds good when I drum on it.

The Buchanan's sound gets lots of compliments from the folk dancers (Headway undersaddle pickup now), and so does the Almuse at a jazz cafe we played at recently. I can't imagine needing another axe, I'm well set.

[Mandobart]

I have five 5-course instruments. I use the entire range on my 10 string mandocello and 10 string hardingfele. I find I don't often use all 5 courses on my 10 string mandola or 5 string viola, and the low C on my 5 string octave viola is a jaw rattler. What I do really like is having the high E on the mandola and violas. It sounds much fuller and rich to me on the larger bodied instruments than on the smaller mandolin or violin.

For gages:
Mandocello, 26" scale. C, G, D, A, E with octave pairs on C, G, D
.074/.037, .048/.024, .034/.017, .022, .010

Mandola, 16.5" scale, C, G, D, A, E with octave pairs on C, G, D
.045/.023, .036/.018, .022/.011, .014, .0095

For the hardingfele top strings and 5 string viola, both 16.5" body (C, G, D, A, E) I use d'addario helicore - they make a long-scale viola E as well. For the octave viola C, G, D, A, E I use the sensicore octave viola C and G. The D, A and E are regular viola C, G and D strings tuned up one step.

[JeffD]

It is amazing how many options that extra string opens up. In all keys.

At the same time, it does become kind of a different instrument. Picking the low G is no longer picking the bottom string, and simple as that is to explain, it is for me a stumbling block to overcome every time.

[foldedpath]

Hang out with players of Scottish smallpipes, border pipes, reelpipes, and that repertoire, and you'll be lucky if you ever hit the G course on a mandolin! Same thing with most of the Irish trad repertoire, although there are exceptions.

On the other hand, one of the things I miss on my octave mandolin is that low D string on my guitar tuned in Drop-D. That "big bottom" under the melodies... which is why I'd rather play guitar than OM for backing. If I did more backup and less melody playing, I'd probably be experimenting with either a 5-course cittern or a Latmandola with the bottom drone strings.