Gibson Mandolin ID Trouble

[Nferr]

Hello, and thanks in advance. I’m having some major trouble pinpointing exactly what this is. The serial seems to date it around 1913, but with an original burst? The logo? Ideas? Much appreciated!

https://ibb.co/cTqww6
https://ibb.co/bG0kpR
https://ibb.co/fZxbw6
https://ibb.co/kx8Gw6

[Bill Kammerzell]

Any numbers stamped inside around the neck block? Might be a combo of letter with numbers.

[MikeEdgerton]

You need the Factory Order Number (FON) that Willkamm is refering to above. It will most likely be on the neck block. It will be a stamped number or numbers and letter combined.

What you probably have is a mandolin that was renecked and refinished probably at the Gibson factory somewhere along the line.

The pickguard clamp isn't original either and you need to get that pickguard off of it and probably out of your shop or house.

[Nferr]

It’s very faded, but it’s either 2430, 3430, 2439, or 3439

[MikeEdgerton]

2430 would confirm it as a 1913 A model. The neck is probably in the 40's or later. Have you got a picture of the tuners from the back? That might tell you when it was renecked because it was. Interestingly they didn't put a truss rod in the neck when it was done. Probably the only thing they did to try and keep it original and it's not.

[Nferr]

They’re open-back klusons

[MikeEdgerton]

As long as they aren't closed back Kluson's then the renecking probably took place right around the middle of the 40's to the very early 50's.

Don't get that pickguard anywhere near a flame.

[Nferr]

Here’s a picture of the keys. https://ibb.co/h6XkpR

What are your thoughts on the finish? It looks original under a black light, but I haven’t seen a 1913 burst that looks like that.

[Nferr]

In the case was a set list of Johnny Johnson from a radio show with Webb Pierce, with both of their handwriting. Not uncommon here in Nashville that it might have been celebrity owned, but I wish I could verify.

[MikeEdgerton]

Those tuners were in use during the WWII years and directly after. They apparently could no longer get screws. Saving them for the war effort and all. I've never seen them imprinted like that, they are usually just blobs of brass.

This being a WWII reneck would make sense actually. There was a whole lot of money available during WWII but very few consumer goods. Gibson probably would have welcomed the repair business, assuming the did the work and I'm pretty sure they did.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's not going to affect the value much even if you could.

[Nferr]

Speaking of value....
I was guessing, after a good cleaning and a setup, it would bring $1200-1500. Thoughts?

[MikeEdgerton]

Probably not. It's what we call a Frankenmando. The good news is the tailpiece cover is probably worth a few hundred dollars on it's own. The rest is pretty questionable. I bought a very decent original 1919 A model with a higher trim level, a unique red interior original case and an intact pickguard and pickguard clamp and a seam separation last year for 500.00. It also had the original tuners and bridge. I might be lucky to part it out at $1200.00. Most likely all in one piece would be less.

[Nferr]

Last question. Thanks so much for everything so far. Do you believe it to be a refinish?

[MikeEdgerton]

Of course. It was refinished when it was renecked. That was pretty much Gibson standard procedure. That wasn't a finish option when it was built. There is a book devoted to the women that Gibson hired to work the factory during the war. I don't have it. If you get a chance take a look through it. I know there are pictures of Gibson employees playing mandolins. You might get lucky and see it. It should stand out.

http://kalamazoogals.com/

https://www.voanews.com/a/gibson-gui...s/1622199.html

I just found the image I was looking for and the mandolin had F holes.

[John Rosett]

I'm not so sure that it was re-necked. The profile of the top of the peghead looks like a teens mandolin, unlike the "open book" profile that later Gibsons had. I've seen more than one old Gibson that was refinished by Gibson, and had a modern logo added at the same time. Here's a picture of a 1948 A-50 peghead, with the logo that debuted right around the same time, and a picture of a teens A style peghead:

[MikeEdgerton]

I can't imagine they would have gone to that much trouble to recut the headstock if it wasn't but hey, who knows. Whoever did the suburst was certainly a delicate artist. The other thing is that the holes for the tuner posts were redrilled to allow for the worm over tuners and the modern spacing. I can't see anyone going to that much trouble and surely the plugging of the holes would show under the tuner plates. I'm betting the wood is clean. Although looking at it those tuners are pretty high on the remodeled headstock.

These are the tuners off a known 1944 Banner guitar. Note the lack of scews on the cogs.

[MikeEdgerton]

There's another way to get at this. Nferr, can you measure the distance post to post on those tuners? Maybe Kluson was making worm over tuners in the old spacing in those days.

[John Rosett]

Those tuners don't look like they're from a teen Gibson, I think that the footprint of the original tuners(More squared off base plate) is visible. They might have been replaced with some older left over tuners when it got refinished, or.....
Also, the spacing is not so different between the teens post spacing and the later ones that they can't be swapped out and still function.

[John Rosett]

I can't imagine they would have gone to that much trouble to recut the headstock if it wasn't but hey, who knows.

I'm not sure that you got my meaning. The picture of the peghead on the original poster's link is that of a teens Gibson. It's not the later "open book" style that any A mandolin with that logo would have. If it had been re-necked any time after 1947-ish, it would have the modern peghead profile. Here's the OP's peghead shot. That looks like a teens peghead to me:

[pops1]

I have had a 1918 that I dropped modern tuners into and went just fine. My '22 I had to cut the tuner plates into 4 pieces to fit well. I cut thru the middle of the screw holes, the screws still worked, but it gave it just enough change to make the posts fit the without angling.

That looks like a late teens, early twenties headstock.

[Nferr]

https://ibb.co/gH5aPR
https://ibb.co/iUs0r6
https://ibb.co/f2rAr6

I think we have a new development. There are filled screw holes (not post holes) under the finish.

[MikeEdgerton]

This is a 1913. The modern tuners shouldn't have fit. They didn't make worm over tuners then.

John I see what you mean, I hadn't noticed the bumps. Maybe it was an original neck or they tried to change a newer headstock to look older. That decal wasn't widely available like it is now. I still suspect it was at least refinished at Gibson. The 1913 A's I found in the archive were mixed with and without the inlay. The clue would be the tuner spacing or the back of the headstock to see if it was redrilled. The spacing on the tuner posts is enough to mess things up when I've tried to mix new tuners with old holes.

[John Rosett]

Yes. I think that this mandolin went back to the Gibson factory in the late 40's for a refinish, and got new tuners and a Gibson logo at the same time.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think we have a new development. There are filled screw holes (not post holes) under the finish.

That would indicate that these were replacement tuners. The original posts would be 23.6 mm (.931). The newer tuners would be on 23.01 mm (.906). I guess they could have jammed that in there but they probably had to chew up the holes a bit doing it. Again, unless those posts are to the old measurement. They are definitely not the original tuners.