Flattops and quality of tone

[Dacnis]

I'm a new mandolin player (6 months) and have a couple of questions about flattops. I have a flattop that I purchased from a well-known luthier. There seems to be general agreement that if you like the sound of flattops they can be an excellent value for the money since the way they are constructed keeps costs down.

There's been some discussion of complexity of tone in another thread, and that caused me to wonder how flattops stack up on the scale of complexity of tone. And on a related issue, will a good flattop have consistency of tone across all strings and up the fretboard?

I guess another way to ask these questions would be whether there's anything inherent in flattop construction that makes them necessarily inferior in sound quality to archtop construction? Or can you have the same level of complexity and consistency of tone in an archtop, just with a different sound?

[Cary Fagan]

I like flattops and have one that I built. There tone isn't as complex as a good carved-top instrument, which matters less in an old time or celtic jam than when playing by yourself. They can't be played as hard, which matters in a bluegrass jam. They usually lose something as you go far up the neck--at least in my experience, although perhaps some luthiers have overcome that.

[bruce.b]

Just different. It’s purely what you prefer. In general, flattops have more sustain and complexity of tone than archtops. Listen to flattop guitars vs archtop guitars, same general differences.

[pops1]

I have an old Martin and while it is not a flattop per say, it is a bent top and a similar construction. It has a nice sound tho different than a carved top, nice low end and nice highs quite a ways up the neck. Most of the bent/flat top mandolins have short necks so you typically don't play as far up, but sound is very nice on mine, and several others I have played.

[Dacnis]

Just different. It’s purely what you prefer. In general, flattops have more sustain and complexity of tone than archtops. Listen to flattop guitars vs archtop guitars, same general differences.

Interesting that you find that flattops have more complexity of tone. When I played other instruments before starting the mandolin, I thought of complexity of tone as being able to play the instrument for an hour or more and have the tone still be interesting to listen to. I can play my flattop for over an hour and not have any boredom or fatigue with the tone at all, so it certainly passes that test. It seems kind of crazy that a mandolin that cost well under $1000 could do as well in complexity of tone as one costing 10 times as much.

[Cliff Seruntine]

It seems kind of crazy that a mandolin that cost well under $1000 could do as well in complexity of tone as one costing 10 times as much.

Prices do not directly, sometimes not even loosely, correlate to quality of tone or playability.

[bruce.b]

I consider complexity of tone as having more overtones and being less focused. Complexity isn’t better or worse, necessarily. I like both archtops and flattops equally as a listener. It’s the same with guitars, archtops are much more expensive than flattops, they exist not to get a more complex sound, but to get a focused tone that cuts through. What sounds better is 100% subjective.

[Dacnis]

I consider complexity of tone as having more overtones and being less focused. Complexity isn’t better or worse, necessarily. I like both archtops and flattops equally as a listener. It’s the same with guitars, archtops are much more expensive than flattops, they exist not to get a more complex sound, but to get a focused tone that cuts through. What sounds better is 100% subjective.

So the main purpose of the archtop is to make a sound that can be heard in a group? If that's the case, then people who don't plan to perform or stand out in a jam might be perfectly happy with a flattop as their keeper instrument, as long as they like the sound of a flattop to start with.

[pheffernan]

I'm a new mandolin player (6 months) and have a couple of questions about flattops. I have a flattop that I purchased from a well-known luthier. There seems to be general agreement that if you like the sound of flattops they can be an excellent value for the money since the way they are constructed keeps costs down.

I love flattops. The fewer man hours that go into their construction, as compared to archtops, make them a great opportunity to get into a small shop domestic build of solid woods at a reasonable price. As a result, they make an ideal starter mandolin, as the one thing they don't do well (cut through a bluegrass jam) is the thing beginners are least likely to need. And when those beginners have progressed into intermediate and advanced play, the same flattop will make a fine backup, alternate voice, or travel instrument as well.

There's been some discussion of complexity of tone in another thread, and that caused me to wonder how flattops stack up on the scale of complexity of tone.

One of the dangers of these types of discussions is the tendency to focus on one point of contrast in a sea of variables. For instance, a flattop is not only a method of construction but more often than not involves a short neck join and an oval tonehole. In my experience, these design choices lead to a less complex tone as compared to an archtop.

And on a related issue, will a good flattop have consistency of tone across all strings and up the fretboard?

Those characteristics are the hallmark of a good instrument, not just a good flattop, although I do believe that a longer neck join, unusual on flattops, helps facilitate power up the fretboard.

I guess another way to ask these questions would be whether there's anything inherent in flattop construction that makes them necessarily inferior in sound quality to archtop construction?

No. There are things inherent in flattop construction that make them necessarily different in sound quality from archtop construction.

Or can you have the same level of complexity and consistency of tone in an archtop, just with a different sound?

You seem to be using "complexity" and "sound quality" almost synonymously here in a way that I find problematic. I would suggest that a flattop can be the equal of an archtop in "sound quality" but tends to have less complexity of tone, particularly if the archtop has a longer neck join and f-holes.

[Dacnis]

You seem to be using "complexity" and "sound quality" almost synonymously here in a way that I find problematic. I would suggest that a flattop can be the equal of an archtop in "sound quality" but tends to have less complexity of tone, particularly if the archtop has a longer neck join and f-holes.

Very helpful reply -- thank you. As to "complexity," what I'm referring to is the fact that sometimes an instrument has a nice sound, but you get tired of it quickly because it's not interesting. So I guess I'm equating "complexity" with a sound that contains enough detail to not be boring. How would you define complexity in a mandolin's sound? Do you think "complexity" of sound is what allows an archtop to be heard in a jam?

I'm trying to decide if there's any reason why a person like myself, who doesn't have any interest in jamming other than maybe casual jamming with friends, would benefit from an archtop.

[trabb]

I won't even try to speak about flat vs. arch in general. I would say that my flat top has far more complexity than either of my arch tops when I'm playing single note stuff - and that's what it was built for. It loses all of that - or at least it turns into a muddy mess - if I start playing double stops and especially full chords. Is it fair to say that sometimes the level of complexity has to do with how the instrument is used and perhaps even more if it's being used for what the builder designed it to do?

[CarlM]

How would you define complexity in a mandolin's sound?

That's the trouble with language. What do you think I mean I thought I meant by what you said you thought I meant. Or something like that.

If you get technical, as bruceb said, complexity means more overtones. A pure tone is more of a sine wave, like an electronic tone generator produces. More harmonics means more sparkly and closer to a banjo in tone. Fewer harmonics would move closer to a fiddle in tone or ultimately to the electronic sine generator tone. Flat top generally has more harmonics, more complex tone, archtop fewer and less complex tone. It does not make one more or less pleasing but perhaps more useful in certain situations or able to achieve a particular sound.

I am not sure this is what you are meaning by complexity. The reason the archtop is heard in a jam is probably is probably because of less complexity. More of the sound is is in the fundamental tone and in our most sensitive hearing range.

If you are playing by yourself the only reason for choosing one instrument over another is because you like the sound.

[CarlM]

duplicate - please delete

[pops1]

I have a bent top mandolin, Martin, I like it's tone quite well. I have a carved top oval, Gibson from the 20's, incredible tone. I also have two arch top ff hole mandolins. One louder with a much less complex tone, the other not quite so loud with a very complex tone. I don't think you can say this mandolin style is more complex sounding than that style. Mandolins vary ff hole, oval hole, flat top, arch top, and each one can have a very fundamental or complex tone depending on the builder, wood, and many other variables.

[Frankdolin]

I like both carved and flat-top although to me they are quite different. I prefer flat -tops for more delicate or sweet music and carved for the harder driven pieces. But it matters not a bit what I like. Play a mandolin and you are playing mandolin music.

[Cliff Seruntine]

Would it be fair to say that increasing tonal complexity (overtones) reduces volume and vice versa?

[Cary Fagan]

Just want to add that many--if not most--modern builders use a longer neck join, the same as an F5, for their flattops. See Arches, Morris, Crystal Forest, etc.

[DavidKOS]

Would it be fair to say that increasing tonal complexity (overtones) reduces volume and vice versa?

Not if my Fischbach flattop mandolin is typical - it's loud enough to be heard over accordions, with a rich wide ranging tone.

[Ky Slim]

The brazilian mandolins or bandolims are flattops and have amazing tone. In the right hands I'd say they are as complex as any other mandolins.

What is the "high end" of flattops? How much does the most sought after flattop mandolin cost?

[Dacnis]

What is the "high end" of flattops? How much does the most sought after flattop mandolin cost?

That's a good question -- maybe Sobells would be the highest? One recently sold after being offered for 5K used, and I think a new one, if available, might run 10K. But few if any are being made today, so that price might not reflect what would be high end for an active luthier.

Another issue is whether to count induced arch as flattop -- the induced arch is barely noticeable and I think it's done for strengthening the top, not for tone, so those probably should qualify as flattops.

[DavidKOS]

That's a good question -- maybe Sobells would be the highest? One recently sold after being offered for 5K used, and I think a new one, if available, might run 10K. But few if any are being made today, so that price might not reflect what would be high end for an active luthier.

Another issue is whether to count induced arch as flattop -- the induced arch is barely noticeable and I think it's done for strengthening the top, not for tone, so those probably should qualify as flattops.

Exactly, but I would not consider most Sobell's as typical flat mandolins.

[bruce.b]

Do we all mean the same thing when we talk about complexity? Probably not. Here are a couple of videos Ive recently enjoyed and loved the tone of the mandolin/player.

https://www.timconnellmusic.com/videos
I love the tone Tim Connell gets on this archtop.

I love the first video on this link, and the tone Billy Brown is getting on his flattop. http://www.redvalleymandolins.com/video/

Not that videos are a good way to judge tone.

[twist_of_nate]

I believe Avi Avital plays a flattop mandolin. Regardless of how you define "complexity", I don't think there's any doubt he can make that thing sing.

[Dacnis]

I believe Avi Avital plays a flattop mandolin. Regardless of how you define "complexity", I don't think there's any doubt he can make that thing sing.

Yes his tone is wonderful. I wish we knew more about the mysterious luthier who made his mandolin.

[fatt-dad]

I think flat-top mandolins have a less-complex sound.

I think this less-complex sound makes them cut surprisingly well in a large jam, if you have a heavy enough hand, that is. . .

I think it's almost impossible to get uniform complexity and sustain from course to course in any mandolin. That said, I'd think it easier to accomplish in the more basic flat-top mandolin - i.e., a mandolin that doesn't start out too complex.

I have dramatic differences in sustain from string to string on my A-model Gibson. That doesn't surprise me at all.

in the end, the hard work is learning to operate these things. That hard work doesn't really care whether the sound is complex or basic. It does care that the instrument is properly setup; however.

I love my Flatiron 1N!

f-d