What is this bowlback vintage mandolin?

[IccBC]

I got this mandolin as a gift from a friend. When I said it was one of the most beautiful instruments I had ever seen, she said that I could it take home with me because she never used it, and it would be better off with someone that would actually put it to good use.

Yet I don't seem to find any info on what brand manufactured it (inside the mandolin it only says "Style 136" and "A2486"). The mandolin also has some pretty awesome inlay on the fretboard and headstock. The inside is made of a weird material which kinda looks like paper, but I really don't know (as you can see in the pictures).

(Sorry for the quality of the pictures, it was a bit dark and my phone really didn't want to cooperate )

If anyone has any information or observation, please let me know!

Pictures:

[Tavy]

Looks US made, and well built and preserved too. No idea about the maker, but I'm sure someone will chime in.

[Rodney Riley]

Yes there is paper inside. Paper goes over the mold/fixture, then all the staves are glued up over it. Assembled body can then be lifted off without sticking. Not schooled enuff to id it.

[DavidKOS]

Reminds me of many American made bowlbacks I've seen. Looks like it could be a decent instrument!

Like Rodney Riley said, many ribbed back instruments used paper as a lining material. But the paper or other lining also is part of the structure of the bowl itself, it's more than just to help removal from a mold.

As Tavy said, it seems USA made...Chicago? Doesn't seem to match Washburn numbers.

[MikeEdgerton]

The Style number could have been a mail order catalog number. Hopefully someone has a catalog page. The other number looks like a Sears number actually. I wouldn't discount Harmony as the builder.

[EdHanrahan]

Also no expert, but, as a generality, the number of staves is an indicator of intended quality level (often an odd number): 7 would be a student/economy model; mid-30s would be top of the line. In this case, there appear be 25 or so staves but the coloring hints that each abutted pair might be a single piece of wood with a maple (?) divider down the middle, as was sometimes done to hint at higher quality. Or I could be wrong.

But overall, it looks really nice, with some of the more ornate and interesting-but-not-gaudy inlay & purfling that I've seen on a bowlback.

[allenhopkins]

Well, Lyon & Healy/Washburn used numbered style designations; Pleijsier's book lists a Style 130 and a Style 140 in the decade 1896-1905, with the same general features as this instrument, but not a Style 136. Washburn also started re-numbering serial numbers with an "A" prefix in 1907. These are suggestive but far from definitive hints. Countering them is the headstock shape and inlay, which I don't find depicted in the book, and the tailpiece cover, which should be a crown; of course, the cover might have been replaced at a later date. The pickguard shape is very similar to the ones depicted in Washburn catalog drawings, but as several have stated, these were purchased from suppliers and many manufacturers used near-identical pickguards.

Main complication is that Lyon & Healy almost invariably labeled their instruments, with label designs that are well-known and date-able. This one has no manufacturer label. If it were an L & H product being made for a separate dealer or distributor, and not included in the regular L & H catalog, it could show variances in inlay, tailpiece etc. On the other hand, would it be assigned an L & H serial number?

This kind of detective work is always interesting, but sometimes doesn't reach a definitive conclusion. Still, the research is more than half the fun -- especially if the researcher doesn't own the instrument...

[Jim Garber]

I believe this is a Lyon & Healy mandolin. Take a look at my 1912 America Conservatory (one of the L&H lines) color page. Though none of these exactly matches the OP's mandolin, the pickguard shape as well as the headstock is the same on a few of these. This mandolin was probably sold to retail stores by L&H for the stores to put their own labels into. They may have stamped the style and serial numbers but who knows to what it refers.

If you set it up, you should string it with extra light strings. A good starter would be GHS A-240 (sold by juststrings.com) tho I prefer Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b (much more expensive) available from bernunzio.com. Is there a bridge that came with this?

[brunello97]

....In this case, there appear be 25 or so staves but the coloring hints that each abutted pair might be a single piece of wood with a maple (?) divider down the middle, as was sometimes done to hint at higher quality.

Or I could be wrong.

I think Ed is right.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I just took a look in my L&H catalog from 1912 and there is an additional info page on American Conservatory mandolins.

This B&W cut at the bottom of the page seems to look very much like the OP's mandolin with the exception of the headstock inlay and the 42 ribs described in the model 604.

BTW I am not so sure that the ribs were faked on this one. First thought says, yes, they could save some work that way and present a higher class look. But then I thought about is and if you look at some really lower-end bowlbacks they do not have round bowls (see below). In order to use less staves you would have to use slightly thicker ones and then sand or scrape to roundness. It would probably take as much work.

I would guess that they split some of the staves and then matched the color for each pair which may account for that look.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Jim. I have had any number of L+H bowls apart where this technique of "two for one" staves has been used. It's some jive-axx trickery, for sure, if you ask me but seems common enough from my experience and well done to fool the naked eye.

If you look at the OPs bowl, the grain and color on adjacent staves is pretty dead on. The grain even runs across two adjacent staves. On the example you posted, the grain and the color varies between adjacent staves. Sure, they might have split an original stave and then glued it back together, and likely did on some bowlbacks. L+H had the "groove and fill" technique down pretty well and apparently used it often enough for a number of those mandolins to wind up in my hands.

Comping the inside vs the outside is also a good way to tell. The inner staves on the OPs photo look much wider than on the outside.

The amount of scraping to smooth over that "hump" would be fairly minimal with the common scraper tools used for smoothing joints. Making a curved scraper would be simple in the shop and a couple quick swipes would get things done. Wouldn't really need much thicker materal--which was evident from the dissected examples I have seen.

Not trying to debunk L+H or anyone's expertise, but..... I probably still have some sections of these around the house for any doubting Tomáses, Josés, Davids, or Diegos. Will look tonight and get some photos.


Mick

[DavidKOS]

If you look at the OPs bowl, the grain and color on adjacent staves is pretty dead on. The grain even runs across two adjacent staves. On the example you posted, the grain and the color varies between adjacent staves.
........
The amount of scraping to smooth over that "hump" would be fairly minimal
.......

Not trying to debunk L+H or anyone's expertise, but..... I probably still have some sections of these around the house for any doubting Tomáses, Josés, Davids, or Diegos. Will look tonight and get some photos.


Mick

You may well be right about the fake ribs.

[Jim Garber]

I believe you, Mick. I have never taken one apart myself. OTOH does it really make all that difference? In some respect less ribs would allow for less separation, I would think.

[brunello97]

I believe you, Mick. I have never taken one apart myself. OTOH does it really make all that difference? In some respect less ribs would allow for less separation, I would think.

I agree, Jim. It isn't such a big deal. I've had a couple lower end Washburns, with the stave count such as in the one you just posted and the wider ribs just allowed the great rosewood they were using to show up better. One of my "couch potato" bowlbacks is just such a Washburn. I really like it quite a lot, mostly because how awesome the bowl is even with a minimum number of staves.

I don't know if y'all saw this Raphael Ciani bowl that just sold for a reasonable price on Ebay.

That's a lot of ribs....

Hard to tell what shape the neck is in. Nice looking mandolin.

Mick