A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

[BrianWilliam]

[Rex Hart]

I can tell the difference. I have played a Gibson A5L and an F5L both built in the same year and the A model has a slightly higher, thinner tone than the F model. This supports what was said in an earlier post. Maybe it has something to do with the different headstock on the two models?

[BrianWilliam]

I can tell the difference. I have played a Gibson A5L and an F5L both built in the same year and the A model has a slightly higher, thinner tone than the F model. This supports what was said in an earlier post. Maybe it has something to do with the different headstock on the two models?

Or the bridges were not seated identically. Or the string had been played for a different number of hours. Or [insert other hardware, ergonomics, preference related differences]....

[OldSausage]

Bluegrass Chomp is a great tune on any mandolin.

[Mandoplumb]

I can tell the difference. I have played a Gibson A5L and an F5L both built in the same year and the A model has a slightly higher, thinner tone than the F model. This supports what was said in an earlier post. Maybe it has something to do with the different headstock on the two models?

One each is not a big enough sampling to draw defiant conclusions. Two F's or two A's from same maker is not going to sound the same. If you could listen to 100 of each and tell a difference I might start believing that the difference was the body shape.

[Tom Sanderson]

I'm going to go against the current and say that I can definitely hear the difference between an A and an F. The A has a much brighter higher register and more sustain where the F sounds like someone has EQd off the high end. A good example I found is where Adam Steffey is demo'ing Northfields. As soon as he starts picking on the A you can hear the difference.

I agree

[JeffD]

No two mandolins sound the same. Every mandolin is going to sound different from every other mandolin. The thing to try and sort out is not whether you hear a difference between an A body and an F body, because you more than likely will. The thing to to sort out is whether that difference is attributable to the body style.

So for example, is the difference between the F and the A body any bigger than the difference between two A bodies or two F bodies. Or, you could look for a common character to the sound among F bodies that cannot be found in A bodies. Something like that.

I don't believe you are going to find a difference that can be consistently attributed to the body style.

Oval hole versus F hole, yea, even I can discern the difference in most cases.

[Rex Hart]

Or the bridges were not seated identically. Or the string had been played for a different number of hours. Or [insert other hardware, ergonomics, preference related differences]....

So, using your same analogy (which I happen to agree with) how does this prove that they aren't different. Truly no way to know for sure.

[BrianWilliam]

Truly no way to know for sure.

Agreed

[DHopkins]

Truly no way to know for sure.

I have to agree also. There are so many variables. Things like humidity, thickness of the wood, type of wood, strings, etc., all affect the sound. Even "duplicate" instruments handmade by the same person have a great chance of being different because of the human element involved.

[JeffD]

So, using your same analogy (which I happen to agree with) how does this prove that they aren't different. Truly no way to know for sure.

They are different. The question is whether the difference has anything to do with the body shape. And my experience is that likely it doesn't.

[allenhopkins]

This disagreement seems to go on forever. What seems clear to me, is that the reasons given for F-models, as a class, to sound different from A-models, all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are), don't seem persuasive to me.

Of course, there's some "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lyin' ears?" going on. I've played and listened to uncounted mandolins over the last 45 or so years, and a systematic difference between A-models and F-models hasn't been apparent to me.

But all these evaluations are basically a string of anecdotal experiences, measured against theoretical postulates saying, in summary, that there shouldn't be a difference.

Luckily, the dispute ain't likely to keep me up nights, pondering...

[Mark Wilson]

If there was a predictable sound difference it would be most apparent to builder of A5 and F5 models. At least I would think so

[sblock]

Well, I look at it this way. We know of so many things that make a even BIGGER difference to the mandolin's tone (for example: top and back thickness graduations, the bridge and its fit, the tonewoods used, the bracing style, the types and locations of soundholes, and more) that it seems pretty silly, to me, to endlessly debate the remaining features that might -- or might not! -- be imparted by the relatively minor differences between the A5 and F5 style mandolins. Yes, the overall mass of the F5 is a bit heavier, with a larger headstock and some extra mass associated with points and scroll), but -- importantly -- the masses that actually do most of the acoustic vibration are identical, because the body shapes are nearly identical (up to the two points and scroll, which are mostly filled). So the sound cavity volumes and shapes are almost identical. Moreover, the f-holes are exactly the same, and located in the same places. The bracing patterns can be the same (usually tone bars). The neck lengths and profiles are the same. The tailpieces, nuts, bridges (and their locations on the top) are the same. All in all, the A5 and F5 are WAY more similar to one another than, say, to a Martin or a Lyon & Healy style mandolin, or to a flat-top, or to a bowl-back, or to a Rigel, Stradolin, Phoenix, Vega cylinder-back, Bacon, Sobell, Karman, bandolim, ... and the list goes on and on.

Writing for myself, I am not aware of any systematic sound traits that would readily distinguish an A5 from an F5. Those claiming to hear such a difference really ought to carry out a blind test, and see how well they actually perform. My money is on their not being able to do much better than random chance, provided they have no advance information! As others have pointed out, quite correctly, the difference in tone from one mandolin to the next is sufficiently large to obscure any tiny sonic differences that might -- or might not! -- exist between an A5 and F5.

Some folks seem to be confused about the underlying issues, because they can happen to hear the differences between their own A5 and F5 models. But this is not about distinguishing between one's own mandolins, which each tend to have a unique voice that you've become accustomed to. This is about systematically distinguishing the sound of an arbitrary A5 from an F5 -- ones that you have not spent a lot of time with. That's a whole different ballgame.

Not so for oval holes versus f holes, however. Many of us here on the Cafe would probably ace a blind test designed to tell these apart. But even then, it might be hard to get a perfect score!

[Mark Wilson]

Yep. At one time I had two identical build mandolins, built 6 months apart, with the idea of keeping one at work. They sounded totally different -

[dhergert]

I'm not leaving the "I can't hear a difference" camp, but it might be worth mentioning that the F style body was not unique to the F-5 and its descendants. There were o-hole F-4s and F-2s and maybe other o-hole mandolins that I'm not aware of. Not to mention the 3-points. I wonder if people in the early Orville days had this same discussion.

[mandroid]

Maybe you will look prettier with an F type.

[sblock]

Maybe you will look prettier with an F type.

Maybe. But then again, there are some awfully pretty A5 models out there, like the 'Art Deco' ones made by Andrew Mowry. See here -- and drool.

This, of course, raises the very deep existential question about whether the player looks any better with a nice-looking instrument, or whether the immediate beauty of the instrument only serves to underscore how very plain-looking the player is himself/herself, by contrast! Discuss...