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Thread: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

  1. #1
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    Default A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Hello; I was reading about a comparison of two mando's by the same company, one was A style and the other F style. The writer said that the A style lived up to it's reputation of being a poor choice for chomping, but the F style excelled at. Does one style lend itself to chomping and the other to single note playing? (I should probably get some of each and see for myself...)

    Thanks, in advance
    Zig
    Regards,
    Marty

  2. #2

    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    It's chopping not chomping. There should not be a lot if any difference between an A and an F if they both have F-holes. The difference comes in when you compare an F-hole to an oval hole. The ovals supposedly don't chop as well as F-holes.

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  4. #3

    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Never really noticed a difference between A & F Mandolin's with both having f-holes
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    one was A style with oval sound hole and the other F style with F holes.
    Regards,
    Marty

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    I'd bet that virtually no one could tell the difference in tone between an a and an f model of the same builder made of the same materials....(both with f-holes, or both with ovals)

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by longneck View Post
    Hello; I was reading about a comparison of two mando's by the same company, one was A style and the other F style. The writer said that the A style lived up to it's reputation of being a poor choice for chomping, but the F style excelled at. Does one style lend itself to chomping and the other to single note playing? (I should probably get some of each and see for myself...)

    Thanks, in advance
    Zig
    1) Chopping, not chomping.

    2) A5 styles and F5 styles sound the same, not different! They have the same necks, the same shaped bodies (except for the scrolls and points, which are usually solid on the inside, not hollow), the same scale lengths, the same nuts, bridges, tailpieces, and so on.

    3) A-styles that have oval holes (e.g., A4 styles) sound different than those with f-holes (e.g., A5 styles). The majority of players in the bluegrass community prefer the projection of f-holes for chopping and soloing. But not everyone.

    4) There are other body shapes and styles besides those based on the Gibson A- and F- styles. Two-points, for example.

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    ...
    (except for the scrolls and points, which are usually solid on the inside, not hollow)...
    ...
    Both of my F-5 style mandolins are hollow in the points. The scroll is even hollow to a large extent. I've examined these with an endoscope to verify that.

    That said, it may be that not all F-5 style mandolins have hollow points. Also, it may be that the net volume (content capacity) of an F-5 style mandolin with hollow points is the same as an A-5 style mandolin. Either way, most people cannot hear any difference between a good A-5 style mandolin and a good F-5 style mandolin.

    As has been discussed, the biggest differences in sound are due to F-holes vs O-holes.

    But keep in mind, human hearing is extremely subjective!
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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    Both of my F-5 style mandolins are hollow in the points. ...
    Are you sure you checked that F9?
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by longneck View Post
    one was A style with oval sound hole and the other F style with F holes.
    There's your difference. Oval-hole mandolins don't have the same percussive initial sound, and quicker decay, as f-holes. Those f-hole qualities are well-suited for "chopping," whereas the longer sustain and more "ring-y" sound of oval-holes works better for other types of playing.

    The sound difference has nothing, or very little, to do with the "A" vs. "F" body shapes; as mentioned above, most F-models are just A-models with additional ornamental protuberances from their rims. Some models may have a slightly larger "box," due to some hollowing of the scroll and points, but many others just have solid wood "furbelows" added on to the basic "A" body.

    The fact that most of the well-known bluegrass mandolinists play F-model mandolins, also reinforces the general perception that only an F-model can be best for bluegrass, and for the distinctive off-beat "chopping" associated with the style. I've found that an A-bodied, f-hole mandolin is quite adequate for bluegrass, "chops" and all.

    As for which is better for chomping, you'd have to ask a termite...
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Philphool View Post
    Are you sure you checked that F9?
    Yes. No question, the points and scroll are hollow. I was a little surprised, but then Gibson probably used (and uses) the same forms and templates for the F-9 that they use for the F-5.

    Edit: Here's an endoscope pic of the inside of the scroll (neck block is to the right, curfing and scroll side-panel shows to the left).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	F-9 Scroll endoscope pic.jpg 
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    This is of my 2002 F-9.
    Last edited by dhergert; Jan-26-2018 at 8:52pm.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


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    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by longneck View Post
    one was A style with oval sound hole and the other F style with F holes.
    It was the oval sound hole then.
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    I need to make a correction. On both of my F-5 style mandolins, the scrolls are hollow as described above, but the points are blocked off. I just re-checked both my F-9 and my MK.

    The upper point on the F-9 has a block that conforms to the inside round shape of that side. The same area in the MK has a block that juts out square and in the joint with the side looks like it is a hollow area of a point -- that fooled me when I examined it earlier. And, the lower points on both mandolins are blocked and roundly shaped to conform with the sides.

    So, scrolls hollow, yes. Points hollow, no, they're blocked off.

    Here's a good picture example of a ~2010 F-9 with the back off before being rescued by HoGo (Adrian) a year or so ago...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	F9 (07).JPG 
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    Still probably can't hear a difference between F-5 style and A-5 style though.

    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Y'all quit telling people there is no difference in sound in a F and an A. They keep trying to come up with a reason to buy an F and y'all keep knocking them down. I'll keep playing my A's and saving money.

  21. #14

    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    One thing that I really like about my Kentucky A is with a strap button on the heel, it hangs straight as a string. No head dropping like with an F.

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    Yes. No question, the points and scroll are hollow. I was a little surprised, but then Gibson probably used (and uses) the same forms and templates for the F-9 that they use for the F-5.

    Edit: Here's an endoscope pic of the inside of the scroll (neck block is to the right, curfing and scroll side-panel shows to the left).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	F-9 Scroll endoscope pic.jpg 
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Size:	58.8 KB 
ID:	164402

    This is of my 2002 F-9.

    I thought that was a picture from my colonoscopy. Anyway, I've always heard that A-style mandolins had a more mellow sound than F-styles. I've never been able to tell the difference. I just happen to like the looks of the F-style.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    I need to make a correction. On both of my F-5 style mandolins, the scrolls are hollow as described above, but the points are blocked off. I just re-checked both my F-9 and my MK.

    The upper point on the F-9 has a block that conforms to the inside round shape of that side. The same area in the MK has a block that juts out square and in the joint with the side looks like it is a hollow area of a point -- that fooled me when I examined it earlier. And, the lower points on both mandolins are blocked and roundly shaped to conform with the sides.

    So, scrolls hollow, yes. Points hollow, no, they're blocked off.

    Here's a good picture example of a ~2010 F-9 with the back off before being rescued by HoGo (Adrian) a year or so ago...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	F9 (07).JPG 
Views:	177 
Size:	178.2 KB 
ID:	164409

    Still probably can't hear a difference between F-5 style and A-5 style though.

    Well, that's more like it. I didn't believe you the first time, based on what I already knew about Gibson F models. In fact, the two points are totally blocked off in an F model, and these do not contribute to the internal volume at all. Furthermore, the scroll is partially blocked off from the main volume (at least half of its volume is solid), as you can see in the picture. So it is not exactly "hollow," either! All in all, the internal volume of a Gibson-style F model is only very little different from an A model of the same general shape. Which is what I asserted earlier. And I am hardly the first person to point this out. Most (not all) players and luthiers alike tend to agree that an A5 model and an F5 model of otherwise similar characteristics (woods, sizes, scale lengths, necks, etc.) sound virtually the same.

    Folks get confused when they attribute the mellower/rounder sound of an OVAL HOLE to it being an "A model" and the sharper/direct sound of F HOLES to the instrument being an "F model." That's wrong. The fact is, there are also A models with F-holes (like an A5-style), and there are F models with oval holes (like an F4, or a Weber Vintage F). So the distinction has little to do with being an F or A shape, per se. It has much more with the shape of the sound hole.

    It would be better -- and clearer for all concerned! -- if folks did not simply write "A model" or "F model" without specifying other important characteristics, like the hole shape and the position on the neck where it joins the body. An A4 is much more like an F4, with an oval hole and shorter neck to the body, and an A5 (like the Mrs. Griffith model) is much more like an F5, with F-holes and longer neck to the body. A4s and F4s sound more like each other, and A5s and F5s sound more like each other.

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    ... All in all, the internal volume of a Gibson-style F model is only very little different from an A model of the same general shape. ...
    True, but the total potential vibrating mass of the instruments are very different. Although it may be subtle, that difference has to also make some difference in sound.

    Again, our hearing is very subjective. Until we have a reliable way to scientifically assess the averaged sound produced by both style mandolins, there will always be some doubt even though in listening most of us honestly cannot tell a difference.

    And then, if there were actually a scientifically proven difference, the question would become "Is the difference worth it?" Ironically we currently have exactly the same question, but only based on a visual appeal difference: "Is the difference worth it?"

    This is much too heady for my feeble mind at nearly 3:00am. I'm going to bed. Sweet dreams!

    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."


    2002 Gibson F-9
    2016 MK LFSTB
    1975 Suzuki taterbug (plus many other noisemakers)
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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    I prefer the chomp to the chop. Meatier for sure.

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    I might as well get into this also....John Duffey once told me that when he works on an F model or a two point mandolin that he tries different size blocks in the cavities because they do change the tone when blocked off as compared to what is there if left open, the difference is very little but every little thing adds up to one big thing....

    Also comparing an A model to an F model when they are both built by the same builder with the same wood etc they will sound different because most builders will tell you that no two mandolins sound alike....I can`t say that I know that for sure because I have never owned or played two mandolins that were made by the same builder or factory, most of us hear what we want to hear anyway when doing any kind of sound test or comparison....

    I own both F`s and A`s and all of them sound good, different but good, if they didn`t sound good I wouldn`t keep them...

    Willie

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    I'm going to go against the current and say that I can definitely hear the difference between an A and an F. The A has a much brighter higher register and more sustain where the F sounds like someone has EQd off the high end. A good example I found is where Adam Steffey is demo'ing Northfields. As soon as he starts picking on the A you can hear the difference.
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    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Time for someone to record and post and A/B comparison....
    Living’ in the Mitten

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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Post your example please

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    Registered User gspiess's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Here you go:
    Being right is overrated. Doing right is what matters.

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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    Quote Originally Posted by gspiess View Post
    I'm going to go against the current and say that I can definitely hear the difference between an A and an F. The A has a much brighter higher register and more sustain where the F sounds like someone has EQd off the high end. A good example I found is where Adam Steffey is demo'ing Northfields. As soon as he starts picking on the A you can hear the difference.
    I'm not sure that's the best comparison. He talked about humidity. Were they both stored under the same conditions? Were they constructed the same? In this case, no. He said the Big Mon was constructed differently. Do they have the same kind of wood?

    Way too many possibilities.
    David Hopkins

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Style vs F stylle for Chomp vs single notes

    The Big Mon has larger body dimensions, by about 5%, than a 'normal' Gibson-style F5 -- hence the name! It was designed this way to sound a bit different from an traditional F5, and it also therefore sounds a bit different from an A5. You would therefore be making a mistake if you attributed the difference in sound you hear to being the difference between an "A" and an "F" model! Once again, this raises the point that those folks who claim to hear a difference are not controlling properly for all the other factors (woods, shapes, age, finish, strings, etc.) that affect mandolin tone. A5 and F5 models sound essentially the same. But then again, no two mandolins sound exactly alike!

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